9mm HD: 124 gr + p vs. 147 gr

[TunnelRat]

Hi all,
So just like the title says. I am trying to pick out some 9mm ammo for home defense (for all of the 9mm haters I have higher caliber options if needed, but I like lots of options). I am talking jhps and I want maximum expansion with good but not over penetration. I know the 124 +p is very popular, but I have heard good things about 147 given its larger mass and slower velocity.

I would appreciate any advice and opinions.
-TR

 

[Webleymkv]

The higher velocity of the 124grn +P loadings will typically give you more aggressive expansion and moderate penetration (12-14") while the 147grn loadings will typically give you more controlled expansion and deeper penetration (13-15"). I personally prefer bullets in the 124-127grn range in 9mm, and I particularly like Winchester Ranger 127grn +P+ and Speer Gold Dot 124grn +P.

 

[DonutGuy]

It depends on the barrel length. A full size 9mm I'll shoot 147's and a sub compact I'll shoot 124+p.

 

[Mr.Blue]

I prefer the added velocity of the 124+P. The extra 23 grains don't matter to me. Gold Dot 124+P is the best 9mm load out there IMHO.

 

[mavracer]

It depends on the barrel length. A full size 9mm I'll shoot 147's and a sub compact I'll shoot 124+p.

curious as to whyIt's been my experiance that heavy bullets loose less velocity when shot from shorter barrels when I chrono, out of my 3" 9mm the 147 Rangers only lose 50-70 fps where as the 124+p golddots lose over 100.
as to the OPs question which one functions 100% and hits POA. with all the other vairiables IE is the BG 120# or 400# there just isn't that much difference between all the better 9mm loadings.

 

[motorcyclist]

If you can hit what you aim at, there's not much difference what you hit it with. I'll go away now.

 

[Webleymkv]

Quote:
It depends on the barrel length. A full size 9mm I'll shoot 147's and a sub compact I'll shoot 124+p.

curious as to whyIt's been my experiance that heavy bullets loose less velocity when shot from shorter barrels when I chrono, out of my 3" 9mm the 147 Rangers only lose 50-70 fps where as the 124+p golddots lose over 100.
as to the OPs question which one functions 100% and hits POA. with all the other vairiables IE is the BG 120# or 400# there just isn't that much difference between all the better 9mm loadings.

While the newer 147grn loadings are much better, the older loadings of that weight had a poor reputation for expansion. Basically, a 147grn bullet just couldn't be pushed fast enough to expand with the bullet technology of the time. Because of this, many people are still a bit leary of 147grn 9mm loadings.

I have no doubt that a modern 147grn 9mm will expand reliably from a 4" or longer barrel. I do however, worry that they're being driven at the lower end of their velocity window and that, when fired from a short barrel, they may not reliably expand. I could, of course, be wrong, but I've not seen enough testing on 147's from short barrels to know either way. The 124grn bullets, however, even in their standard pressure loadings which give roughly the same velocities I'd expect from a 124 +P out of a short barrel still seem to reliably expand.

 

[TunnelRat]

So is the consensus then that 124 + p expands better? I actually would prefer a little less penetration for in the home. I have read others recommend Speer Gold Dot. Just need to find a good place to pick some up.

For reference I am talking about a 4.25" barrel or longer.

And yes, if you can't him them it doesn't matter.

 

[Webleymkv]

So is the consensus then that 124 + p expands better? I actually would prefer a little less penetration for in the home. I have read others recommend Speer Gold Dot. Just need to find a good place to pick some up.

Sometimes, but not always. I do note that there are a couple of 147grn loadings, Winchester Ranger and Federal HST IIRC, that expand slightly more than their lighter, faster counterparts. The difference is, however, small enough to be insignificant IMHO. One thing that does seem to be universally true is that 147grn bullets almost always penetrate more deeply than 124grn bullets of the same design although you're looking at a few inches difference at most.

A good place to get ammo is from SG Ammo

http://www.sgammo.com

They usually have LEO overrun JHP ammo in 50-round boxes for roughly the same price you'd pay for a 20-round box of the same stuff at your LGS or one of the big box stores. They also usually have LE-only ammo like Winchester Ranger or Federal HST which is made specifically for law enforcement and not marketed to the general public (though it is perfectly legal to buy, own, shoot, and carry).

What type of handgun do you have? Winchester Ranger 127grn +P+ is also an excellent loading but, because it is a +P+ loading, should only be shot in limited amounts in modern guns of good quality and condition.

If SG Ammo is out of what you're looking for, Streicher's or Ammunition to Go are other good places to check.

http://www.streichers.com

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com

 

[Don Glock]

So is the consensus then that 124 + p expands better

no.


147gr 9mm HST in either standard pressure or +p is probably the best performing 9mm jhp to be had right now. it's expansion diameter is unmatched by any others. often around .78inch, and penetration is around 13+ inches. it also retains 95%+ of it's weight through auto glass.

it retains weight better than the bonded gold dots,as evidenced by ATK's own LE website.


for 124gr jhp's, i like the gold dot +p. another consistent performer.

 

[mavracer]

Yes 147 HST and Rangers are cconsistant performers. The Ranger load chrono's right at 1000 fps from my LC9. IMHO plenty enough to expand. The 124 +p golddots were between 1125-1140 sttill plenty good for SD but since Ruger reccomends limited +p in the LC9 and it shoots them great that's what I feed it.

 

[Coltman 77]

Here's some very real, solid data.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

 

[DonutGuy]

curious as to whyIt's been my experiance that heavy bullets loose less velocity when shot from shorter barrels

its the same reason why I shoot 200 grain gold dots out of my Glock 39, a faster velocity round gets up to speed quicker from a short subcompact barrel. Full size I shoot the heaviest grain from that caliber, small sub compact I shoot a faster round.

 

[mavracer]

a faster velocity round gets up to speed quicker from a short subcompact barrel.

While the lighter bullet may reach a higher terminal velocity. The heavier projectile allows pressure to build a bit more before it moves making it use pressure more efficient. Out of my 4.5" gun the 124s have a 200 fps advantage shorten it up to 3" and it's only about 125.

 

[KyJim]

My personal favorite is the 124 gr. Speer Gold Dots which seem to perform well out of all typical handgun barrel lengths. I'll shoot the 115 gr. Gold Dots out of longer barrels though they don't always penetrate quite to the "magic" 12 inches of ballistic gel. They are real real close when they don't and I still have some from the 2008-2009 Great Ammo Shortage when it was pretty much get what you can find.

 

[MikeNice81]

147gr HST is great. In a short barell the heavier bullet looses a smaller percentage of the velocity than a smaller bullet. It lingers and uses pressure more effectively.

The department I work for issues 124gr+P Federal HST to officers that choose 9mm. They are considerring Federal HST 147gr+p when they switch back to all 9mms. 124+p, 147gr, or 147gr+p will do the job very well. The 147gr and 147gr+p does better if you have to go through a barrier.

The 9mm is a cost decision after seeing the 9mm was equally effective in OIS when compared to the heavy 40S&W rounds some officers were issued. They decided to switch calibers and keep up training levels. The officers with more training fare better in confrontations. Which just goes to show knowing what you're doing is more important than the bullet or caliber you choose. (for the most part)

 

[Aiko]

My first post here, hello all. In 9mm JHP, I feel equally comfortable with 124 +P in Federal HST or 147 gr. Winchester Ranger T Series.

 

[dlb435]

I've done the math and the 115 gr bullet is optimum. It plots out as a shallow bell curve. The 124 gr would come in next with the 147 gr bullet last.
The curve is rather shallow, so the loss in energy is not that bad. It depends more on your needs in a round.
If you want maximum bullet damage; the 115 gr bullet is best.
If you want better penetration through cover (glass, clothing, plywood, etc...); the 124 gr or even the 147 gr bullet might be a better choice.
If you want maximum bullet expansion; the 90 gr bullet would be best.
It's all a compromise. The numbers favor the 115 gr bullet in most cases. The problem is that no two shooting situations are the same. When you pull your peice, there is no time to select the best ammo for that moment.
When you select the 124 gr or 147 gr bullet you are trading less bullet damage for a better chance of getting to the target through mild cover.

 

[MikeNice81]

I have a question for the 115gr guys. Where are you getting your information?

I have not heard of a single department using the 115gr lately. The ones that have stuck with 9mm are using either 124gr+p or 147gr. These are people that study their OIS incidents and the latest ballistic information. None of them choose the 115gr+p+.

None of the instructors I've talked to recomend anything less than 124gr in the 9mm. Most recomend using 124gr+p or 147gr. What information is out there that the rest of us are missing?

 

[TunnelRat]

@ dlb435
I'm not disagreeing, but what formula are you using? I actually happen to be a statistics major. If I had to guess I'd say you're using the formula for kinetic energy, where the greater difference in muzzle velocity would yield much higher results as we are talking m*v^2. Is that the traditional formula used to measure effectiveness?

-TR