5.7 Good Enough for You?
- Thread starter joshua
- Start date
FirstFreedom
Moderator
Oddly enough, I find exactly the opposite is true. (except for the part about submachine gun).
From a PISTOL, it is useful, as it puts an SBA-piercing-capable weapon into a *concealable* unit. Unlike standard handgun rounds.
In a non-concealable LONG GUN, it doesn't matter whether the barrel is 11, 14, 16, or 30 - a carbine is a carbine is a carbine. As long as you're going to use a CARBINE/LONGGUN during which the whole world at large can see that you're carrying a gun, then why on earth would you limit yourself to a round that is puny by comparison with the already somewhat anemic (arguably), that being the .223/5.56? The answer of course is, to reduce recoil and muzzle blast. The problem with that is, there is absolutely no need to reduce the recoil and muzzle blast from the already-quite-tame-in-that-department .223/5.56, in semi-auto form. So you're needlessly handicapping yourself.
Now, in full-auto mode, it's a different story, because the P90 is touted as being *UBER-controllable* in full-auto, as opposed to merely "highly" controllable in an M4 type weapon. The uber-controllability allows one to hose a target repeatedly with pinpoint accuracy, which works well in degrading soft body armor with each successive shot. You can just focus in and stay on the heart/lungs of the enemy wearing SBA, and keep it right on target until the SBA falters, using pinpoint precision like the controllability of the old gangster's typewriter, the Thompson. So it's marginally useful if yours is full auto..anyone on here got a full-auto one?
In addition to the full-auto reasoning, the 50 round capacity instead of the 30 round capacity of a standard mag of an M4 type weapon can help in an intense engagement which is very short-lived, in which a mag change could take time and get you killed. 20 more rounds is well, 20 more rounds. Now, again, do those for sale to US have those extra 20 rounds? No, they castrated them. Castrated them needlessly under the law, I might add. So the two features which make the P90 potentially useful are BOTH negated in the civilian version.
So now we're back to teats on a boar hog. $1,600 teats mind you.
Now, the only conceivable reason for the usefulness of the semi-auto, 30-round civilian version (other than pure fun or coolness, which are indeed an end in themselves), is if there were some off-the wall scenario where you wanted a "semi-concealable" high capacity longgun, which for example, could conceal under a trench coat with a shoulder strap holding the carbine in the armpit area, as with a shoulder holster, except on the strong side, ready to swing into action at any moment. The small bullpup configuration would allow this in such a highly unusual, and likely illegal-to-carry situation. But nevertheless, it IS a justification for the gun I suppose.
It is absolutely unnecessary to analyze the comparison between .22 mag and 5.7x28 in order to make the above analysis. Regardless of how relatively close, an M4 or other carbine, bullpup or otherwise, chambered in .223/5.56 or similar (7.62x39) blows them both away, and is equally controllable in semi auto form, for all intents and purposes. IMO.
The FiveseveN OTOH, is highly useful, potentially, for the reasons mentioned, in my view anyhow.
Now, again, do those for sale to US have those extra 20 rounds? No, they castrated them. Castrated them needlessly under the law, I might add. So the two features which make the P90 potentially useful are BOTH negated in the civilian version. -FirstFreedom
The only 30 shot mag I have ever seen came with the gun, and it changed right back to a 50 shot as soon as I changed out the floorplate. The 50 rounder is the only one you can buy...no neutering going on. (where did you get your info??lol)
and what is this about "degrading soft body armor with each successive shot "....thats not how it works(its not a sandblaster)
it works the same as a AR15 on SBA...
The only 30 shot mag I have ever seen came with the gun, and it changed right back to a 50 shot as soon as I changed out the floorplate. The 50 rounder is the only one you can buy...no neutering going on. (where did you get your info??lol)
and what is this about "degrading soft body armor with each successive shot "....thats not how it works(its not a sandblaster)
it works the same as a AR15 on SBA...
FirstFreedom
Moderator
Oops, I may sit corrected on the capacity.....when they first came out and I checked on them, they were castrated to 30 rounds for some reason. Now they are 50 like the original?
On the degrading SBA, yes it's a phenomenon that is real. But it's ONLY necessary if the first shot doesn't punch through. With traditional SBA, the 5.7 works fine first shot, just like the .223 - not a problem. But against some of the new badass technologies, it's not going to on the first shot - neither cartridge.
But successive hosings of a small area on the SBA will have a cumulative degrading/destructive effect, allowing ultimate penetration. May take 2-3 or more shots with a .223, for example (which is *harder* to hold on a SMALL) area, or may take 3-5 or more shots, for example, from a 5.7 (which is *easier* to hold on a small area in FA). Just depends on the armor & technology the enemy is using - that technology is changing all the time, and at in *increasing* rate even, it seems. For example, against something like dragonskin, the 5.7 ain't gonna cut it with just a few rounds. But hose a 3-4" circle with 10-20 rounds on full auto, and you'll likely defeat it. So it is indeed a lot like a sandblaster. In fact, I thought that was one of the theories behind the P90; one of its raisons d'etre. Also for example, against things such as bullet-"proof" glass - hosing a small concentrated target until it's defeated by the cumulative effect. Again, without FA, notsomuch gonna matter - could be done just as fast - in fact faster - with a more powerful round.
On the degrading SBA, yes it's a phenomenon that is real. But it's ONLY necessary if the first shot doesn't punch through. With traditional SBA, the 5.7 works fine first shot, just like the .223 - not a problem. But against some of the new badass technologies, it's not going to on the first shot - neither cartridge.
But successive hosings of a small area on the SBA will have a cumulative degrading/destructive effect, allowing ultimate penetration. May take 2-3 or more shots with a .223, for example (which is *harder* to hold on a SMALL) area, or may take 3-5 or more shots, for example, from a 5.7 (which is *easier* to hold on a small area in FA). Just depends on the armor & technology the enemy is using - that technology is changing all the time, and at in *increasing* rate even, it seems. For example, against something like dragonskin, the 5.7 ain't gonna cut it with just a few rounds. But hose a 3-4" circle with 10-20 rounds on full auto, and you'll likely defeat it. So it is indeed a lot like a sandblaster. In fact, I thought that was one of the theories behind the P90; one of its raisons d'etre. Also for example, against things such as bullet-"proof" glass - hosing a small concentrated target until it's defeated by the cumulative effect. Again, without FA, notsomuch gonna matter - could be done just as fast - in fact faster - with a more powerful round.
I was not clear enough in my original post. Yes, from a military or perhaps police standpoint I suppose that the armor piercing capabilities maybe somewhat useful in specialized roles (though there are probably better tools for the job such as the .22 Reed Express or a short barreled rifle). However, for civilian purposes, I don't see much point. We're not able to readily get the armor-piercing ammo, so we've just shot the whoe advantage in the rear. Also, I can't imagine that the round would have a whole lot of "oomph" left after it penetrates the body armor as it's not exactly a hand-cannon to begin with. Besides that, the occasion that the civilian would need an armor-piercing round is extremely rare. One may argue capacity, but let's not forget that many other pistols can accept extended magazines that hold more than 20 rounds. I don't really view the capacity as a huge advantage anyway because the average civilian isn't all that likely to need 20 rounds (I feel perfectly comfortable with the six in my revolver). The carbine, however, is very short and handy and delivers satisfactory ballistics with very little recoil without as much overpenetration risk as most of the more powerful rifle rounds. Since "defence of your home and family" was part of the OP's post, I presume we're looking at this from a home-defence standpoint. I thik that we can all agree that for use indoors, a shorter gun is best and that is where I see the usefulness of the PS90. Personally, I have no plans to run out and buy the pistol or carbine as I already have both pistols and longarms that meet my needs just as well if not better.
And that's a good reason to avoid those loads, or any that perform like them.
As for the 5.7, it seems that THR had a thread about them and someone posted a picture of a shot into raw meat. The NON-expanding bullet only penetrated about 7 inches if I remember right. Not very inspiring for self defense. Now in a full auto with no recoil, yow!
Just remember, fair is fair. Sure the 5.7 guns have little recoil, but if it takes half a dozen rounds to put a perp down, he has had the time to return a half a dozen rounds of his own. No thank you.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
OK, good point Webley - I see what you're saying.
But, it's a pretty simple matter to make up some hardcast high-tin & antimony pointy .22 bullets that will do what you want in penetrating lev I, IIa, or II SBA (maybe IIIa even), regardless of what you find off-the-shelf.
But, it's a pretty simple matter to make up some hardcast high-tin & antimony pointy .22 bullets that will do what you want in penetrating lev I, IIa, or II SBA (maybe IIIa even), regardless of what you find off-the-shelf.
Slugthrower
New member
"Don't believe anything you read on a gun forum. Its as pointless as going to a tree huggers website to learn about global warming. Think for yourselves and don't believe anything unless you have personally researched it or the findings are consistant with what you know to be true." Medula Oblongata.
Sounds like good advice to me. Also sounds like MO listens to Neal Boortz too. So even if he loves the 5.7 and has a bias for it. Maybe one should test out the pistol. Granted it isn't all that impressive a handgun and we know that shot placement is king. There is merit in trying something new and different, even if that advice comes from a police chief from Nebraska, whom likes to lord his implied brain power over the lesser civilians that he serves. Isn't that right Ryan, I mean Medula Oblongata?
Sounds like good advice to me. Also sounds like MO listens to Neal Boortz too. So even if he loves the 5.7 and has a bias for it. Maybe one should test out the pistol. Granted it isn't all that impressive a handgun and we know that shot placement is king. There is merit in trying something new and different, even if that advice comes from a police chief from Nebraska, whom likes to lord his implied brain power over the lesser civilians that he serves. Isn't that right Ryan, I mean Medula Oblongata?
5.7 invented as a carry weapon for support personnel, ie defensive. Various rounds were introduced for various task. More to come. P90 also developed to be "Urban, close quarters" where walls may hide friendlies. Round is designed to fragment, not expand. In walls, this means reduce overpenetration. In tissue, this means one entry and multiple cavity wounds, and no exit. In other words, blood loss. Which unless you deliver a fatal blow, in which what round you use doesn't really matter, blood loss or shock stops the fight.
5.6 is an offensive weapon. Unless you use some special load, will many times overpenetrate, which is not a good thing for home "defense".
So, you asked the question, which in our individual opinions makes the better home defense round/gun. Owning both, I gave you my opinion and stand by it. If you have both, practice clearing your home with the AR. I think if your honest, you will find the task awkward in certain spots of your house. Now do the same thing with the PS90. A world of difference in my opinion. The round is really mute in my opinion.
But honestly, I don't / won't use either for home defense. I prefer a Spingfield XD-45 with tactical light and laser and Black Hills ammo.
5.6 is an offensive weapon. Unless you use some special load, will many times overpenetrate, which is not a good thing for home "defense".
So, you asked the question, which in our individual opinions makes the better home defense round/gun. Owning both, I gave you my opinion and stand by it. If you have both, practice clearing your home with the AR. I think if your honest, you will find the task awkward in certain spots of your house. Now do the same thing with the PS90. A world of difference in my opinion. The round is really mute in my opinion.
But honestly, I don't / won't use either for home defense. I prefer a Spingfield XD-45 with tactical light and laser and Black Hills ammo.
Saturating an area of armor to defeat it? If I have to put 3 to 6 slugs into the same area with a semi auto weapon then I may as well aim for the head, it is a bigger target than 4 inches. If they stand still then they must be well disciplined criminals. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't want to be shot by anything even if it was only a 22 short. Lots of dead bodies at the morgue with death caused by rimfire 22s. josh
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't want to be shot by anything even if it was only a 22 short. Lots of dead bodies at the morgue with death caused by rimfire 22s. josh10 MickeyMouse
New member
Energy does not equal penetration. 5.56mm projectiles are less likely to penetrate residential structures than most handgun rounds. As for the AR not being graceful in the HD role, one simply needs to learn how to manuever in CQB scenarios with a longarm. A shorty AR is not much longer than a PS90.
Finally no, I don't think the 5.7x28mm is a viable defensive cartridge-especially when one considers how much more punch you can get in a package roughly the same size as a PS90. As for the Five-seveN, I'd rather have a grendal P-30; similar power with 10 more rounds. Of course, I wouldn't choose either for HD. That's a job for my 11-87 Police.
Small caliber rifles cause very traumatic wounds because of the velocity; this phenomenon of ballistic devastation starts to happen just over 2,000 FPS. Handguns do not have enough velocity to create the nasty temporary cavities and all those lovely things that go along with hydrostatic shock, so they rely on crushing and tearing tissue with larger bullets. The problem with the 5.7 is that it basically offers the worst of both worlds; it takes that small caliber projectile and drives it at a velocity too low to impart the nasty wound characteristics associated with rifle cartridges.
Better than either:
Funny, I find both the 5.7mm and 5.56mm to be quite loud.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
This is an excellent point Joshua. Dang, and here I was stretching to prop up the justification for the rifle - well I tried.
I've chronoed 223 in 14" and 11.5" barrels. My results with 55 grain bullets were 2700 fps for the 14" and about 2500 fps for the 11.5", that's being modest with loads just starting to get warm. The fireball with certain powders in a short barreled 223 is nice to see at night. I've blasted prairie dogs with a 14" barreled 223 out to 300 yards. josh
I've blasted prairie dogs with a 14" barreled 223 out to 300 yards. joshI think it's plenty quality for me. But then, I have a 5.56 AK that doesn't have the delicate constitution of the AR platform.
As with all surplus, you have to look at it. Some of the Guatemalan is shiny and excellent, I get 1997 and up lots. Some of the older stuff went through a hurricane and looks like a corroded battery.
And I also get Radway Green SS109/M855, last order was $167 for 720 rounds.