Mike Irwin
Staff
"According to his info, when the govt went to obtain the 1909 DA revolvers, there was concern about the small, thin rim of the .45 Colt working in them. I have often heard how concern about the small thin .45 Colt case rim was the reason there are no period contemporary lever guns in .45 Colt. The makers didn't think the rim would hold up to the lever gun's feed & ejection cycle."
That part is apparently true.
"Anyway, according to my friend's information, the Govt had one of its arsenals redesign the case rim into something thicker and stronger..."
Also true. The work was done at Frankford Arsenal, which was the primary (and at the time I believe only) developer and manufacturer of small arms ammunition for the US military.
"...and he says there were GOVT ammo boxes marked "45 LONG COLT for 1909 Revolver". SO, it is possible that the GOVT named the new rim design cases the "Long Colt" to distinguish them from the original rim design."
That part, I'm not so sure about.
First off, the M1909 cartridge was a return to the full-length Colt cartridge, originally adopted in 1873 but dropped in 1875.
The full-length Colt cartridge was only produced for a few years at Frankford Arsenal because the military acquired the M1875 Schofield revolver chambered in .45 Schofield.
The Schofield cartridge as supplied by S&W for testing had a MUCH larger rim than the original .45 Colt cartridge. It was also shorter, held less powder, and used a 230-gr. bullet.
The military, which had already been receiving complaints about the recoil of the .45 Colt's original load of 40 grains of powder, saw the benefits to S&W's cartridge and adjusted their production. They adopted a rim diameter somewhere in between the Colt and S&W supplied cartridges, reduced the powder charge to 30 grains, and reduce the bullet weight to 230 grains.
After early 1875 or so that cartridge was manufactured for US military revolvers in .45 until .45 ammo production ceased in the early 1900s.
(Note: This site says that both length cartridges were manufactured until adoption of the M1887 round and that US Army Quartermasters were the ones who originated the term LONG as a means of distinguishing between the two rounds.
Interesting theory, one I've never heard before.... and one that bears investigation given that QM records from that time period are still preserved...
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/truth-45-long-colt/)
What I don't understand, though, is why the government simply didn't restart production of the M1887 round instead of going back to the full-length case.
The answer to that may be, however, that the M1909 round was designed for use with a jacketed bullet, which overall was somewhat longer, so it might have been done as a means of supporting the longer bullet. Supposition on my part.
Anyway...
I've seen any number of boxes of M1909 revolver ammunition made at Frankford and none of them have been marked Long or anything even remotely like what your friend is suggesting.
The military boxes were always fairly uniformly designated by the cartridge type and (usually) the firearm(s) for which it was intended to be used.
This is a typical box of period M1909 ammunition
![DSCF8868%20[1024x768].JPG](https://www.hayesotoupalik.com/images/DSCF8868%20[1024x768].JPG)
These are the early, full length .45 Colt cartridges as originally adopted for the M1873 revolver. Note that they are loaded with 30 grains of powder, as opposed to the original 40 grains of powder, which was found to give objectionable recoil and was hard on the guns (and troopers).
This set of boxes, from just a year or two later, removes reference to the specific gun... as the first of S&W's Shofield revolvers had been purchased for testing and the shorter cased round that could be used in either revolver was being produced by Frankford to remove any possible supply issues.
While it's hard to tell from simply a photograph, if you compare the boxes in this picture to the boxes above, it certainly seems that the bottom set of boxes isn't quite as tall, seemingly indicating that there's a shorter cartridge inside.
That part is apparently true.
"Anyway, according to my friend's information, the Govt had one of its arsenals redesign the case rim into something thicker and stronger..."
Also true. The work was done at Frankford Arsenal, which was the primary (and at the time I believe only) developer and manufacturer of small arms ammunition for the US military.
"...and he says there were GOVT ammo boxes marked "45 LONG COLT for 1909 Revolver". SO, it is possible that the GOVT named the new rim design cases the "Long Colt" to distinguish them from the original rim design."
That part, I'm not so sure about.
First off, the M1909 cartridge was a return to the full-length Colt cartridge, originally adopted in 1873 but dropped in 1875.
The full-length Colt cartridge was only produced for a few years at Frankford Arsenal because the military acquired the M1875 Schofield revolver chambered in .45 Schofield.
The Schofield cartridge as supplied by S&W for testing had a MUCH larger rim than the original .45 Colt cartridge. It was also shorter, held less powder, and used a 230-gr. bullet.
The military, which had already been receiving complaints about the recoil of the .45 Colt's original load of 40 grains of powder, saw the benefits to S&W's cartridge and adjusted their production. They adopted a rim diameter somewhere in between the Colt and S&W supplied cartridges, reduced the powder charge to 30 grains, and reduce the bullet weight to 230 grains.
After early 1875 or so that cartridge was manufactured for US military revolvers in .45 until .45 ammo production ceased in the early 1900s.
(Note: This site says that both length cartridges were manufactured until adoption of the M1887 round and that US Army Quartermasters were the ones who originated the term LONG as a means of distinguishing between the two rounds.
Interesting theory, one I've never heard before.... and one that bears investigation given that QM records from that time period are still preserved...
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/truth-45-long-colt/)
What I don't understand, though, is why the government simply didn't restart production of the M1887 round instead of going back to the full-length case.
The answer to that may be, however, that the M1909 round was designed for use with a jacketed bullet, which overall was somewhat longer, so it might have been done as a means of supporting the longer bullet. Supposition on my part.
Anyway...
I've seen any number of boxes of M1909 revolver ammunition made at Frankford and none of them have been marked Long or anything even remotely like what your friend is suggesting.
The military boxes were always fairly uniformly designated by the cartridge type and (usually) the firearm(s) for which it was intended to be used.
This is a typical box of period M1909 ammunition
These are the early, full length .45 Colt cartridges as originally adopted for the M1873 revolver. Note that they are loaded with 30 grains of powder, as opposed to the original 40 grains of powder, which was found to give objectionable recoil and was hard on the guns (and troopers).
This set of boxes, from just a year or two later, removes reference to the specific gun... as the first of S&W's Shofield revolvers had been purchased for testing and the shorter cased round that could be used in either revolver was being produced by Frankford to remove any possible supply issues.
While it's hard to tell from simply a photograph, if you compare the boxes in this picture to the boxes above, it certainly seems that the bottom set of boxes isn't quite as tall, seemingly indicating that there's a shorter cartridge inside.
