45 ACP shooters, do you know/care about 45 Super and .450 SMC?

[gwpercle]

I like the original 1911 and 45 acp , they get the job I need done .
It's like this ... I drive to work in a 250 HP 1968 Chevelle , sure I could have put a 600 HP motor in last rebuild ... but you know what ... I don't need a 600 HP motor to drive to and from work ... the extra 350 HP would be a total waste .
Same deal with 1911 and 45 acp ... I shoot NRA Bullseye 3 Gun Target and keep a 1911 around the house to ward off two legged varmits . The targets dont require extra power , the 2 legged varmits are easy to kill , accuracy trumps power for these two .
I'm over my magnumitis days , shooting the biggest & baddest handgun isn't on my bucket list ... the 1911 and 45 acp with 185 , 200 or 230 grain bullets take care of all my needs ... just like the 250 HP V-8 in my Chevelle ...they both go plenty fast and have enough muscle .
Gary

 

[TRX]

I have an FEG GKK that, for whatever reason, does not function reliably with standard .45 ACP. It works just fine with .45 Super. I gave up trying to figure out its problem; I just feed it Super and give the innards the hairy eyeball every time I clean it. FEG spent no extra effort making any internal machining pretty, but their steel and heat treat seem to be holding up just fine.

I have a Norinco 1911 with a Clark Custom .460 Rowland kit. The .460 is big fun, and seems quite accurate too.

Once you start loading your own there's very little difference in cost between plain .45 hardball, Super, or .460. My normal shooters, I load plain old ACP.

 

[TruthTellers]

The issue of velocity and plated bullets has nothing to do with hollow points. Berry's puts a velocity limit on all their plated bullets. The issue is the velocity peeling the plating off the projectile. As I read your original post, I assumed you were concerned that standard JHP bullets at high velocity either would fragment rather than expand, or might expand too soon and thereby limit penetration.

Please clarify: What IS your concern?

.45 Super is too fast for some bullets.

 

[TruthTellers]

When doing my load development, in .2-grains steps, there was no more than a thousandth or two difference in case diameter, just forward of the extractor groove, between starting load and max.

I've weighed cases, empty and filled with water, and found no real correlation between capacity and implied case strength. Some .45 ACP cases have lower internal volume than Starline .45 Super cases.
I've heard/read in a few places that the Super cases are thicker, but I think any additional strength, compared to .45 ACP, comes from the material itself; either a different alloy, or perhaps heat treatment.

I load .45 ACP using free brass I get at the range well over +P pressures to shoot in a Ruger Redhawk and have yet to have a case split or fail in some way. Done about 3 reloads with the same brass. Also, since this are for a Redhawk only I use lead bullets with a crimp groove and roll crimp, so I'm working the brass more than what typical cases are.

IDK how much stronger the .45 Super case is, but it seems .45 ACP cases are plenty strong enough. Seems to me the .45 Super is just a misnomer to put on a headstamp so people know not to stuff it in a WW2 era 1911 that's got a weak recoil spring.

 

[TruthTellers]

On the subject of reliable JHP expansion or otherwise fragmentation occuring at high velocity, (1200fps) I can say only this... First of all, who cares? Honestly, does anyone actually carry loads that powerful for self-defense against bipedal predators? To me, full-power 10mm Auto and by extension .45 Super is for defense against large predatory animals like Bears, not humans, and solid bullets are typically preferred for that role.

Also, I'm not sure where the whole "230gr @ 1200fps" statistic is coming from. Seriously, factory loaded .45 Super tends to be "230gr @ 1100fps" and .450 SMC is "230gr @ 1150fps" at least looking at Buffalo Bore and Double Tap's loads. So 230gr @ 1200fps is a bit fast for .45 Super.



Are there any semiautomatic pistols chambered in .45 WinMag in current production? Honestly, to the best of my knowledge, the only pistols chambered in .45 WinMag have been out of production for over 20 years, weren't especially popular, and command a high premium these days.

If the LAR Grizzly or even the AMT Automag were still in production, then I would be all over them, but they aren't, and as far as I know they weren't exactly shot frequently, so even if I were to find an old one for a good price, then I would have a gun that I really can't be sure how long it would hold up to .45 WinMag before something breaks, and when/if something does break, then I'd have to hunt down replacement parts which may be equally as expensive and as hard to come by as the pistol itself to scale.

So yeah, I like the H&K USP45 Elite because it can shoot both ordinary .45 ACP and .45 Super, has a proven track record for durability, and replacement parts are still in production even if something breaks.
No, it's not capable of shooting a cartridge anywhere near as powerful as .45 WinMag, (not without extensive aftermarket modifications anyway) but then again, I really don't need it to anyway.

I don't disagree with your assessment that 10 and .45 Super are for big animals, but you don't get to choose when you're out in bear territory or other place in the world what threats you might encounter. Best to use a load that can fill multiple roles.

 

[Pistoler0]

I don't disagree with your assessment that 10 and .45 Super are for big animals, but you don't get to choose when you're out in bear territory or other place in the world what threats you might encounter. Best to use a load that can fill multiple roles.

Exactly, that's where the appeal of a 45 ACP pistol that can shoot 45 Super is: in its versatility. Specially for those of us that live in places where 4 legged threats are real.

I agree with all who posted that 10mm is a very available and SAAMI standardized load, but not everybody can afford to have a different pistol for every contingency.

A 45 ACP pistol that can shoot 45 Super can do double duty as an EDC gun that is affordable to practice with when using 45 ACP hardball, and as a bush gun for when out in big critter territory.

A 9mm compact pistol is better for everyday concealed carry.
A 10mm pistol or .357 Mag revolver is better for woods protection and hunting.

But the 45 ACP pistol shooting 45 Super can fill both roles, and obviates the need for owning different pistols and stocking different caliber ammo for those who are not firearm enthusiasts or who are on limited budgets. That's why I didn't understand why 45 Super isn't more popular, and why reading the responses in this thread has been so interesting.

Most people participating in this forum own several firearms, and IF they need a gun for 4-legged critter protection or hunting they have one purposely for that and they don't need to tinker with their 45 ACP pistols.

 

[Pistoler0]

I must say that an equally versatile pistol filling both EDC and woods protection roles could be a 10mm that can also handle .40 S&W. And .40 is typically a little bit cheaper to shoot than 45 ACP, so this could be an even better choice for a pistol that can fill both roles.

10mm Glocks reportedly can fire .40 S&W without modification. Others recommend a conversion barrel for this (which is a considerable expense) but this is recommended for firing Super out of the 45 pistol as well.

The advantage with the 45 ACP / 45 Super setup is that with a fully supported barrel, both cartridges can be shot out of the pistol without needing a barrel exchange. I've been doing this with my Glock 21 for years.

As I understand, with a 10mm / .40 S&W setup one should ideally use the 10mm barrel for shooting that round, and swap to the .40 S&W barrel when wanting to shoot that.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

.45 Super is too fast for some bullets.

In what way? I'm not trying to be obtuse -- that comes naturally -- but are you concerned about the plating peeling off, early expansion, over expansion, fragmentation -- or a combination of the above?

 

[JustJake]

10mm Glocks reportedly can fire .40 S&W without modification. Others recommend a conversion barrel for this (which is a considerable expense) but this is recommended for firing Super out of the 45 pistol as well.

Actually, an aftermarket .40 "drop-in" tube for, say, a G29 or G20, is less expensive than buying a separate .40 pistol and the mags to feed it, if you want to play in .40-Landia occasionally.

At the time I bought one for my G20 from LWD, it was llike, $125.00. Other barrel vendors, like KKM or Bar-Sto, may be a bit pricier.

As I understand, with a 10mm / .40 S&W setup one should ideally use the 10mm barrel for shooting that round, and swap to the .40 S&W barrel when wanting to shoot that.

Correct. Safest way to do it.

And again, having a spare .40 barrel for your 10mm (and that can also be done with the 10mm 1911-platform, possibly with some fitting), really doesn't break the bank cost-wise.

 

[Forte S+W]

Supposedly Wildey Survivor, taking orders though customer services seems a bit spotty

I'm really not a fan of the Wildey Magnum Pistol, wouldn't want to special order one then have to wait however long it took to fill my order, and the fact that there's no upfront pricing on the page seems like a red flag to me, indication of a prohibitably high price tag.

I don't disagree with your assessment that 10 and .45 Super are for big animals, but you don't get to choose when you're out in bear territory or other place in the world what threats you might encounter. Best to use a load that can fill multiple roles.

For anything less than a Bear or another such large animal which requires solid bullets for penetration, a .45 ACP should suffice. So if you feel that JHPs are situationally better suited for the role you have in mind, then just load .45 ACP into the gun, and voila, reliable JHPs.

That being said, Buffalo Bore sells JHPs in .45 Super, and the bullets appear to be somewhat unique, so I presume that they have been made to function at high velocity. What's more, IIRC either Alaskan Ballistics or Chuke's Outdoor Adventures on YouTube have tested them in Ballistics Gel and they indeed work.

 

[74A95]

and the fact that there's no upfront pricing on the page seems like a red flag to me, indication of a prohibitably high price tag.

That being said, Buffalo Bore sells JHPs in .45 Super, and the bullets appear to be somewhat unique, so I presume that they have been made to function at high velocity.

How are they unique? Did you make that up?

They look like Hornady XTP and Speer Gold Dot bullets.

 

[44 AMP]

What is a prohibitively high price tag???

Something quite different for each of us, I suspect.

All depends on how fat your wallet is, and how much you are willing to pay to get what you want.

People used to pay $1000, 1500, even $2000 for a 1911A1 type gun from the big "name" custom shops when the stock gun was $500 (or less). Personally, I always thought that was stupid, but it was their money and they got what they wanted for it.

Looking on the net, I see the HK 45 pistols mostly going for $1000 or so, used, and some models $13-1400 and a couple of guns sold for $2500+.

To me, that's prohibitively expensive. Mostly because A) I already have a lot of pistols, B) I'm retired and living on half the income I used to have, and C) I don't particularly like HK or Glock pistols and don't think they're worth the money they ask for them.

Your situation and your opinions can be the exact opposite of mine, and that fine.

If it doesn't meet your criteria, don't buy one. Its that simple. IF what matters to you is a duty class size pistol and bigger or smaller isn't of interest for whatever reasons, fine.

WHEN there is a perceived need or sufficient desire for more power, there are two general schools of thought. One is old school but still applies today, and that is, if you want / need more gun, you get a bigger gun.

The other, and seems to be the most popular today, is to increase the power of existing cartridges that fit in existing guns (of the size desired), so you don't have to get a bigger gun. There's no free lunch and there are pros and cons to both approaches.

My approach is to use a bigger gun over shooting +P or +P+ ammo in a smaller one. Feel free to chose what works best for you.

FYI, a couple tidbits of info on the magnum semis mentioned, just so you're aware of them. Something like 80% of the LAR Grizzly parts are interchangeable with standard 1911a1 parts.

And in what I think is a quite unique situation, the Wildey is not just gas operated but has an adjustable gas system. You have to use .45WinMag brass 0f course, but you can adjust the gun, by hand, to run reliably on load levels ranging from light .45acp target loads to full house .45Win Mag loads. And its done without changing any parts at all. Can be done in the field, requires no tools and you can go back and forth as often as you want.

Pretty neat system I think.

 

[The Happy kaboomer]

Nope. Not one bit of interest.

 

[darkgael]

Got interested in the Super some years ago. Loaded some up, did a barrel change, changed the springs. Shot it. Curiosity satisfied. I put the gun back to .45 ACP and the remainder of the ammo on the shelf, right next to the .400 CorBon.

 

[RickB]

Why did you change the barrel?
The whole point of .45 Super, is that it offers dramatically improved ballistics, yet chambers in a standard .45 ACP barrel.

 

[Forte S+W]

@44 AMP
We already discussed this once in your Do Dinosaurs Still Exist thread, but to briefly recap, it's the 20% of LAR Grizzly specific parts that I'm worried about. Also, I already wanted an H&K USP Elite for years prior to taking an interest in Magnum Pistols, and when I found my USP45 Elite it was priced much lower than what they were typically going for. Yes, it was expensive at just over $1000, even prohibitively so under ordinary circumstances, but my Stimulus Check came in, and ai had no extra expenses at the time, so I figured, why not take this opportunity to get a luxury firearm you've had your eye on?
No regrets either, I love the H&K USP45 Elite, and while I still find true Magnum Pistols like the LAR Grizzly to be awesome, .45 Super is still a powerful round among Semiautomatic Pistols, and I can honestly say that I can never see myself needing anything more.

The USP45 Elite effectively scratched multiple itches for me all at once. It's a powerful semiautomatic pistol, a luxury firearm, and a competition grade target pistol.

It's also worth noting that the Elite models of the USP are seldomly imported, and allegedly H&K wasn't going to import them anymore as of this year, so it was sort of a how or never type thing. So as expensive as they are, they're likely to only become more expensive in the future.

Why did you change the barrel?
The whole point of .45 Super, is that it offers dramatically improved ballistics, yet chambers in a standard .45 ACP barrel.

Because one of the things that used to be called for with a .45 Super conversion was a barrel with a fully supported chamber, which not all barrels have. In more recent years, folks who have fired .45 Super out of stock Glock barrels which aren't fully supported claim that the brass is strong enough to withstand the added pressure all on its own, but many folks still choose to replace the stock barrel with aftermarket barrels with full chamber support.

 

[ballardw]

I'm really not a fan of the Wildey Magnum Pistol, wouldn't want to special order one then have to wait however long it took to fill my order, and the fact that there's no upfront pricing on the page seems like a red flag to me, indication of a prohibitably high price tag.

Price list at https://www.usafirearmscorp.com/price-list

Starting at $2750

The Order on the top of the main page has the price list in a drop down list.

 

[Forte S+W]

$2750 is waaay outta my price-range. Besides, I don't even like the Wildey Pistol to begin with, so even if I did have that much money to blow on a gun, then I still wouldn't buy a Wildey Pistol.
Honestly, the Wildey is my least favorite of the Magnum Pistols, even the Desert Eagle is more attractive to me, and what do you know, it's a lot cheaper.

 

[rodfac]

I'm quite satisfied, from a self-defense standpoint, in the .45 ACP with most any bullet. IMHO, it's about the recoil limit for all but a hardened range shooter, and still allow a suitably quick 2nd shot. Greater velocity and bullet weight may appeal to some, but I'd question their viability in a defensive shooting encounter. In a single phrase, it's enough for the job, and not too much.

With any modern JHP bullet, the .45 ACP's velocity at 800 fps or more, will give good expansion with the penetration necessary for defensive use. Small dia. defensive rounds, 9mm etc., may give marginally better "split" times, but that ability is of debatable use in a real defensive shooting.

The guns suited to its use, in particular the 1911 and its clones, though of single stack configuration, offer enough capacity, and reliability and ease of manual of arms to be first rate carry weapons. Many of the pistols designed in the last 20 years lmay offer lighter weight and greater capacity, but few if any can offer the superb grip and balance of the original 1911 & will pay for that lighter weight with add'l recoil.

If the hyper velocity rounds derived from the original .45 ACP are designed for wilderness use, I'd suggest a more robust revolver round: .41 or .45 Magnum come immediately to mind...and there are others.

YMMv, but I'll stick with the .45 ACP and trust in its century of storied use.

Best Regards, Rod

 

[Desmosedici]

I know about these rounds, but have no interest in acquiring firearms to shoot them. Having enough of an issue affording .45 ACP as it is, a round I enjoy shooting through the pride of my collection.

If budge were no object, I'd have a .45 Super and dozens of other pistols (to say nothing of rifles) to have fun with. This in no way is a denigration of .45 super, I just have my own supply challenges with the calibers I'm running now. That said, I'd sure love to try one if I came across it.