45 ACP shooters, do you know/care about 45 Super and .450 SMC?

[FrankenMauser]

People don't buy .45 Auto firearms for velocity.
If they wanted speed, they'd buy something else.

People buy .45s for, "big hole, heavy bullet." (And false nostalgia.)

Much more, and you're dealing with reliability and recoil issues.
Reliability can be dealt with.
Recoil is subjective.
But the average idiot just doesn't care to tinker, if they even know that it is possible; and they don't like recoil.

I can tell you from a personal perspective that the only reason I deal with .45 Auto is to feed suppressed firearms. I have no interest in more speed, nor .45 Auto, semi-auto handguns.

If I want more capacity, I buy something else.
If I want more speed, I buy something else.
If I want more recoil, I grab something else.

No interest -- from me, or the *vast* majority of .45 Auto shooters.
The horse has been thoroughly flogged.
Consensus: Not worth the effort.

 

[jmr40]

I have a 10mm that would do just fine for large predator defense or hunting. But I also have some 45's and feel Buffalo Bore's 255 gr hardcast @ 900+ fps is probably equal to the task. Sometimes it ain't about speed. Shooting the same bullet faster would probably just mean more recoil and no better performance.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=395

 

[Pistoler0]

As a matter of fact, I just recently purchased my first .45 ACP Pistol, the Heckler & Koch USP45 Elite, of which a big part of the attraction lies in the fact that it's rated for .45 Super right out of the box.

Beautiful pistol!

I am thinking about a HK45 or a USP45 for my bday : )

 

[Pistoler0]

As for why nobody produces firearms specifically rated for .45 Super, it's because the cartridge was doomed to obscurity by greed when the son of the man who invented the cartridge had the name Trademarked, thus preventing anyone from putting out a pistol with ".45 Super" on the slide, as well as ammo manufacturers from loading any ".45 Super" ammo without paying a licensing fee to do so. (For example, the H&K USP45 doesn't officially state anywhere that it's rated for .45 Super by name, merely that it's rated for any factory loaded .45 ACP ammunition.) As for .450 SMC, it just didn't come out soon enough.

^^^^

Well written post, I agree with this.

 

[Forte S+W]

If you're going for a pistol to shoot .45 Super specifically, then I would recommend the USP45 over the HK45.
Although the HK45 was sort of intended as a successor to the USP45, for some inexplicable reason, H&K chose to omit the USP's Recoil Reduction System from the HK45's design in favor of the little polymer recoil buffer in the USP Compact. Problem is, the USP's Recoil Reduction System is what enables the USP45 to handle a steady diet of .45 Super sans modifications while still being 100% reliable with ordinary Standard Pressure .45 ACP. Granted, the USP45 Compact and HK45 can still handle .45 Super, but the RSA will have to be swapped out far more frequently because the polymer buffer obviously isn't anywhere near as durable as the Dual Recoil Spring Assembly in the full-size USP.

That being said, it's a trade-off since the USP is an older design with lesser ergonomics and a proprietary rail system, but the recoil reduction system is really what makes the USP such a durable firearm. Also, there are multiple variants of the USP to choose from, ranging from the standard model, the Tactical model with a threaded barrel, to the Competition Grade Expert and Elite models

 

[Crankylove]

it has always surprised me how very few 45 ACP shooters that I encounter at the range or the store seem to know about the 45 Super and 450 SMC.

Many shooters know about them.

Many shooters are happy with the .45 Auto as is.

Many shooters like don’t want to beat the firearm designed for .45 Auto to death trying to make it something it isn’t, like the .45 Super, .460 Rowland, etc.

I’ve got two .45 Auto’s, a 1911, and a Ruger convertible.

This is pretty much where I’m at……..

People buy .45s for, "big hole, heavy bullet." (And false nostalgia.)

Much more, and you're dealing with reliability and recoil issues.
Reliability can be dealt with.
Recoil is subjective.

……………………


If I want more capacity, I buy something else.
If I want more speed, I buy something else.
If I want more recoil, I grab something else.

 

[TruthTellers]

Yeah, Frankenmauser hit the nail on the head. I'm not much into .45 for autoloaders, I like that it's easy to reload and brass is easy to find at the range, I like how well it mates with a suppressor, but other than that it has a lot of weaknesses.

.45 Super still suffers from the same issue .45 ACP does and that's capacities are low outside of Glock and FN FNX pistols. Further, what does 230 grains of lead at 1200 fps do that 200 grains of 10mm at 1250 fps doesn't?

Another factor with .45 Super is a similar issue that 10mm suffers from and that's hollow points meant for the slower, lower pressure cartridges (.40 S&W, .45 ACP) are meant to expand at those lower velocities. Crank up the velocity and they fall apart once they hit flesh of the target. 10mm has a bit of an out tho because it seems the 200 grain hollow points hold up to the 10's velocities.

I know of no .45 bullets outside of heavy 250+ grain JHP's meant for revolvers that hold up to higher velocities.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I know of no .45 bullets outside of heavy 250+ grain JHP's meant for revolvers that hold up to higher velocities.

In the spirit of "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," how many of the JHP projectiles currently loaded in commercial .45 ACP ammunition have been tested for use at 1200 fps? Do you have links to test results?

 

[44 AMP]

I know of no .45 bullets outside of heavy 250+ grain JHP's meant for revolvers that hold up to higher velocities.

I've had zero failures with Winchester 230gr FMJ at `1500fps

 

[Lima Oscar 7]

No.

 

[Sevens]

The gun industry and the 45 ACP community seem to have ignored these two loads, and I just don't understand WHY. Why aren't 45 ACP shooters excited or even knowledgeable about these? And why aren't more 45 ACP firearms rated for 45 Super? < when often the same model is available in 10mm >

I think the most accurate answer for why these aren't dished out by the formal gun community (print media and recognized "industry pro" websources) and why currently produced guns are not spec'd for this all boils down to SAAMI acceptance.

They aren't SAAMI approved cartridges (are they and I'm unaware?) and because of that, tossing out a "sure, shoot .45 T-Rex in our new pistol if you like!" only opens the gun manufacturer up to ANYTHING a handloader can stuff in to a piece of brass.

.45 Super has recommended specs, .45 SMC likely does also, but if they aren't SAAMI cartridges, then nobody has agreed to the specs.

For the .00000001% of the gun buying public, it would be a lousy business/legal decision to say, "hey, sure, run whatever you can fit in to this sucker and we'll warranty it!"

 

[12-34hom]

450smc

Had a H&K compact in 45 auto that i carried ccw. loaded it with 450smc, Great round and ballistics are compatible with 10mm auto, Muzzel flip and blast were not all that bad. overall would have no problem carrying it as a primary defensive gun. 12-34hom.

 

[bamaranger]

.45's

Never heard of the SMC, was aware of the Super (and the Rowland).

The .45acp has been around a long time, and explored and exploited a great deal. In its current factory guise of 230, 200 and 185 grain projectiles, it offers a blend of power and control in varied platforms with a regarded history as a defensive cartridge.

I'd offer that fans of the .45 acp consider the cartridge just fine as is.

 

[HiBC]

Back in the 80's,some of the thunder of the 45 Super and 460 Roland was pre-empted by the 451 Detonics.
Stronger brass was found by shortening 45 Win Mag to a length of .050 longer than the 45 ACP. The extra .050 was a safety feature to prevent the higher pressure ammo from being loaded in a stock 45 ACP gun.
Supposedly 185 gr loads approached 1300 fps.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/06/24/detonics-story/

 

[Hawg]

I have no interest in either one. .45 ACP does all I need it to.

 

[TruthTellers]

I know of no .45 bullets outside of heavy 250+ grain JHP's meant for revolvers that hold up to higher velocities.

I've had zero failures with Winchester 230gr FMJ at `1500fps

You know my focus was on hollow points.

Even plated bullets like Rainer and Berry's may not hold up as Berry's states 1250 fps is the max velocity for a lot of their bullets. Now, not everyone is running plated, but IDK how many are buying thousands of jacketed bullets given the ever increasing price on those.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You know my focus was on hollow points.

Even plated bullets like Rainer and Berry's may not hold up as Berry's states 1250 fps is the max velocity for a lot of their bullets. Now, not everyone is running plated, but IDK how many are buying thousands of jacketed bullets given the ever increasing price on those.

The issue of velocity and plated bullets has nothing to do with hollow points. Berry's puts a velocity limit on all their plated bullets. The issue is the velocity peeling the plating off the projectile. As I read your original post, I assumed you were concerned that standard JHP bullets at high velocity either would fragment rather than expand, or might expand too soon and thereby limit penetration.

Please clarify: What IS your concern?

 

[RickB]

Many shooters like don’t want to beat the firearm designed for .45 Auto to death trying to make it something it isn’t, like the .45 Super,

Super runs at 28k psi, and spent cases eject six-eight feet; don't think the gun is being beaten to death.
Contrast that with 10mm, which runs at 37k psi, and ejects cases 20+ feet.

 

[totaldla]

Super runs at 28k psi, and spent cases eject six-eight feet; don't think the gun is being beaten to death.
Contrast that with 10mm, which runs at 37k psi, and ejects cases 20+ feet.

Do you actually shoot either 45Super or 10mm?

I ask because you are making observations about case ejection that has little to do with SAAMI pressure.

 

[RickB]

I shoot and handload for both.
I think chamber pressure, and ejection distance, are both measures of "how hard" a gun is working.
There are no SAAMI specs for .45 Super.