45 ACP, Glock and Lead Bullets

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Marco Califo

New member
I have a 45 ACP Glock 30. I have Jacketed, and Plated Bullets, but also have 500 very hard cast (Brinnel 18 - 22) in 185 and 200 grains.
Glocks come with polygonal bores, and they warn against using Lead bullets, but many people do, with no issues with leading. I have seen other reports of leading problems developing before emptying one magazine.
I am using BE-86 and CFEPistol, at warmish loads (midway between start & max). They should be moving around 1100 fps.
So, am I heading for trouble?
I have been thinking that hard cast bullets are less likely to leave lead in the barrel. Yes, I know barrels are made with normal rifling. That is not my question. My question is about leading in Glock factory barrels.
 
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totaldla

New member
I'm not sure why this keeps coming up - going on 30yrs.
All I can say is that I have never seen evidence of a badly leaded glock barrel. And I certainly have never seen evidence of leading causing damage. Oh I've seen quazi-investigations of kabooms where some very bad thinking implicated barrel leading - and of course the low-IQ forum parrots repeat these cases over and over when they lack something useful to say.

I personally have shot uncountable numbers of cast lead bullets, hardness ranging from 12 to 20+, through a Gen 2 G21, gen 2 G19, and gen 3 G19 with hardly more than a slight streaking of lead. And I load pistol cartridges to their potential.

I don't know what to tell you really. I'm older and if I bought a brand new Glock something it would not see a jacketed bullet except for fancy hollow points. And I wouldn't give it a thought beyond peeking down the barrel to see how things are going, exactly as I do with every pistol I own.
 
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74A95

New member
I've had lead buildup in a Glock barrel when firing swaged lead bullets. I've seen a little lead buildup with cast bullets, but not nearly as bad as swaged.

Polymer coated lead bullets show no lead so far.
 
4

44 AMP

Staff
Sounds good. It is Glock's own warning that bothers me.
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I can understand that, but considering GLock has, from day one said reloaded ammo voids the warranty I wouldn't let it bother me a lot..;)

While I don't use the powders you are, I think 1100fps is more than a bit "warmish". IT is the max listed speed in some of the data I have for a 185gr jacketed, but your gun isn't the test gun, and polygonal bores tend to turn in higher speeds than conventional rifling.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
Your links don't provide what gun those loads were fired from. One of my 45s has a 5" barrel. Another has a 4" barrel, and one is a carbine, velocity of the same load differs between all three. Not counting my 7.5" Ruger :p

11 and a half from a 4" .45 is pretty smokin. From a 6" still what I would consider warm using the ACP case.
 
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higgite

New member
Hodgdon data is from a 5" barrel.

I suspect Speer's is, too, but can't verify that. In Speer 14 they used a 4.4" barrel, but the MVs are slower than shown in Marco's link (Speer 185.PNG) for the same powder charges, so I suspect Speer used a 5" barrel for their latest data.
 
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mehavey

New member
I suspect Speer used a 5" barrel for their latest data.
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See in sequence
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6925442&postcount=25
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6925457&postcount=27

Both Speer and Hodgdon appear to have problems -- internally and between their own publications. In addition, Speer has to be using something longer that a 5" barrel in the online data -- tho' nothing listed.

I tending to not trust anything now in 45ACP data unless I've chronographed it in fact.

Troubling.... :(

.
 
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totaldla

New member
I can tell you that the AA5 load velocity is accurate from a 5" barrel, roughly 60fps less from a 4". I've burned a lot of AA5 in the 45acp. I always liked a warm 185gr.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
I tending to not trust anything now in 45ACP data unless I've chronographed it in fact.
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NO reloading data, online or in books, is anything other than a guideline, until you have tested it in YOUR gun, with your components.

Individual gun VARY. Even identical make, model, caliber, and barrel length guns VARY. Each individual round of ammo, varies. EVERYTHING has tolerances.

Most of the time, the differences are small enough not to be significant, which is why the load data serves as reasonably good guidelines, but sometimes the differences are large enough to be significant, and every gun/ammo combination has the potential to significantly differ from the next.

Chronographs are neat. Great tools, they tell you what you are actually getting for velocity. This can be a good thing to know. But they are also the "boulevard of broken dreams" at least as much as they are an "avenue of delight", because reality isn't always what people assume it is.

And, different guns also treat pressure differently. Again, the majority are very close to each other, but there are some at each end of the bell curve, and the only way to know for certain is testing them by shooting.

Here's an example of something uncommon but not unknown. from my personal experience,

Three different pistols with 6" barrels. Book data for the load was also from a 6" pistol. The chrono showed a 100fps difference in MV between the "slowest" and the "Fastest" guns, all shooting the same ammo. And, the slowest gun was 70fps faster than the book data!!!

On the other side of the coin, a friend of mine loved his .270 Wby, until a chronograph showed him that his .270 Win was actually shooting 30fps faster than his Wby. An unusual thing but it was the truth. With a different WBY or a different Win almost certain his results would have been different.
Sometimes the stars line up so you get more than the book says. Sometimes you get what the book got, and sometimes you get less than the book got. It is what it is, and the only way you know what you will get is to test it yourself and see what you got.
 
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mehavey

New member
NO reloading data, online or in books, is anything other than a guideline
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Agreed, and has been my philosophy for as long as I've been in this game.
But the 230gr/45ACP/Universal/Longshot experience just now was so out
of the ballpark as to be (darkly) laughable.
 
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Aguila Blanca

Staff
The relationship is that 1100 fps is quite a bit more than "warmish" in .45 ACP, especially with a lead bullet.

Hodgdon's on-line data for Winchester 231 (which is what I use) shows three bullets in 185 grain for the .45 ACP. The maximum loads for each yield velocities of 870, 906, and 1001 fps. I load Berry's plated lead 185-grain bullets over 5.3 grains, which should be a mid-range load, and the velocity (checked with a chronograph) ranged from 649 to 698 fps.
 
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44 AMP

Staff
A long time ago, I created a load for the Speer 200gr "flying ashtray" that clocked a measured 998fps from my 4.25" Browning BDA/Sig P220. It was above publlshed max back then (almost certainly is now) so I'm not going to say what it was, only that it worked in my gun and showed no pressure signs. was quite "snappy" though.

I'm fairly sure that load under a 185gr from a 5" would probably crack 1100fps.

however, that load was also too hot for the 1911A1 "pin gun" we tried some in. In that gun every round cratered primers.

what you can get from a load doesn't just depend on the load or barrel length alone, it also depends on what gun is shooting it. And always remember that "safe" and "suitable" are not exactly the same thing. Suitable is always safe, but safe (meaning it functions properly and without immediate damage) isn't always suitable.

Proof loads are "safe" that is proven by the gun surviving them without breaking, but they are in no way suitable for use.
 
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totaldla

New member
Aguila Blanca said:
The relationship is that 1100 fps is quite a bit more than "warmish" in .45 ACP, especially with a lead bullet.

Hodgdon's on-line data for Winchester 231 (which is what I use) shows three bullets in 185 grain for the .45 ACP. The maximum loads for each yield velocities of 870, 906, and 1001 fps. I load Berry's plated lead 185-grain bullets over 5.3 grains, which should be a mid-range load, and the velocity (checked with a chronograph) ranged from 649 to 698 fps.
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1100+fps is doable with AA5 and XTP bullets (5" barrel) without hitting +p territory. Was my favorite carry load back when I carried a 1911. Nice shooting load for me. I still run my cast lead 185gr at about 1150fps (5").
My point is that the 45acp is only limited by the propellant and the shooter's tastes. Some guys like their 185gr @950fps and some like it zippier..
 
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74A95

New member
Lots of noise about velocity and pressure in the 45. 1100 fps with a 185 bullet in a 5" barrel is no big deal, and several powders will do that and exceed that with +P pressure.

Pressure: the 45 Auto max pressure is 21,000 psi. The +P max is 23,000 psi. The 45 Proof load minimum is 31,000 psi. A big number, yes, but the standard pressure limit max for the 45 Super is 28,000 psi, the 450 SMC max is 32,000 psi, and the 460 Rowland is 40,000 psi.
 
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