44-40 contradictions

[Savvy_Jack]

What don't I get? We are talking about the same thing here. Stout loads in equipment not made for it shot over the long term.

44-40
1. Winchester 73' lever action, Whitney-Kennedy lever action, Colt-Burgess lever action, Marlin model 1888 lever action, Colt Lightning slide action, Replica Winchester 73' lever actions, Remington #2 Rolling-Block SS, Ballard #2 single shot, and the Stevens model 44 single shot are all weak actions and should stay below max SAAMI pressures 11,000 psi

2. Winchester 92' lever action, Marlin 1889 lever action, Marlin model 1894 lever action, Remington-Keene bolt action, Remington model 14 1/2 slide action, Winchester single shot rifles, Remington #1 rolling block, Remington Baby Carbine SS, and the Stevens model 44 1/2 single shot all can shoot 22,000 psi just fine, just as intended by the ammo manufacture.

I am glad we can agree on that!!

Once made 100 year old ammo withstanding. Nobody should have to go over standard pressure to get good accuracy

Cant argue with that but.......its nice to be able to kick butt when needed, also a little more explanations below ;-)

or maybe you need to move up a caliber.

or move down to a BB gun or paint ball gun to plink steel targets?

I neve rsaid SAAMI is the be all but it's what we got for pressures

.
Nope!!, its what SAAMI uses but if you see published pressures from a 24" barrel, it will not be from a pressure test barrel[that I know of]!
Also, there is the CIP method....

You quote an article where they have no idea how the pistol broke, just a guess as some sort of evidence?

My point exactly! The most common cause of a firearm exploding is from a double charge rather than an over charge. However, just below the photo of the broke revolver....the very first sentence says they were using Winchester white box factory loads. We have no idea as to the history of the firearm, were any hot loads used previously and if so, how many? Does the owner's manual caution not to use +P loads?


Back to the 44 magnum chambered Winchester 73'.....what does the manual caution against the type of ammo to use? If it is stamped 44 magnum, it should be able to withstand a steady dose of max SAAMI loads......just like our original conversation. If I took a cannon, a solid iron core and bored it out to chamber a 44-40 cartridge, will SAAMI max be an issue? NO! If I took a 357 magnum and bored it out to chamber a 44-40....would the firearm handle SAAMI max? NO!!!

A cartridge has it's limitations as so does the weapon that chambers it. The problem with the older "dash" cartridges like the 44-40, 38-40 etc is that they were more powerful and more accurate at distances with black powder loads....in comparrison, now they are neutered down smokeless loads but create "equal" pressures. When Winchester manufactured the 92', the 44-40 cartridges were nirtosized, doubleing in chamber pressures....proving the cartridge was not weak, but the weapons that once chambered it were!! Using +P or even +P+ loads in the newer stronger guns is perfectly fine. Has nothing to do with advancing to the next size cartridge, but everything to do with getting the best with what you have.

Any 44 magnum stamped firearm should safely shoot a steady load of any SAAMI max spec manufactured ammo. Just because it is a 44 magnum doesnt mean folks should assume it's okay to shoot home grown stout loads.

Same with the 45-70, we all know the weak link here is the Trapdoor Springfield so that is were SAAMI makes it's max! BUT, we all know that the stronger rifles use a much stronger load for those that like stout loads.
Trapdoor is held a 18,000cup max while the 1886 Winchester and 1895 Marlins are safe up to 28,000cup. So if 18,000 is good enough for the trapdoor, why increase the load to 28,000? That is exactly the philosophy I used with the 44-40 73' vs 92'. It is common practice for the 45-70 so your

Nobody should have to go over standard pressure to get good accuracy

is valid but not necessary.

 

[Ricklin]

Necro threads

I for one greatly appreciate the warning that pops up here when a poster is bringing a thread back from the dead. It's helped me a couple times.

I suggested another site I frequent do the same, they are not interested. It's common there for 10 year old threads to be dredged up.

 

[Savvy_Jack]

Saxonpig

For 50 years I have heard of "For Rifle Only" 44-40 [and 32-20] ammo but I have never actually seen any. Nor have I seen the specs to see the difference.

NOT FOR PISTOLS

NOTE H.V. HEADSTAMPS

NOTE H.V. HEADSTAMPS

And the neutered High Velocity by Remington tha can be used in all revolvers etc.

30wcf

Beginning back in 1903, and for about the next 40 years, higher velocity .44-40 cartridges were offered for both the '94 Marlin and '92 Winchester. Catalog velocity was almost 1,600 f.p.s. with a 200 gr. jacketed bullet. Pressure was reported to be around 22,000 p.s.i. and therefore were not safe to be used in the '73 Winchester.

Lately, I have been working with my '94 Marlin Cowboy Ltd. (24") replicating those vintage factory offerings. As I recall. 44-40 Willy had done some of this in the past.

The jacketed bullets I have used have been 1.)R-P 200 gr. .427", 2.)Winchester 200 gr. .426" 3.) Speer 200 gr. .429"
The groove diameter in my rifle is .428" and all of the bullets shot well even though both the R-P and Winchester were smaller than the groove diamater. Surprisingly, the smallest group was fired with the Winchester bullet that was .002" under groove diameter.

Using R-P cases, here are the loads I have tried:
20 / 2400 / 1,670 f.p.s.
21 / 4759 / 1,619 f.p.s. (Capacity load)
21 / H4227 / 1,610 f.p.s.
25 / XMP5744 / 1,630 f.p.s. (Capacity load)

All of these loads shot groups in the 1 1/2" range @ 50 yards.

The best group to date came with a slightly higher charge of H4227 under the Winchester bullet.
22 / H4227 /1,685 f.p.s. went into less than 1" for 5 shots @ 50 yards....but the powder had to be positioned to the back of the case to get that result/

I'ts been kind of neat stepping back in history and shooting these replication loads of days gone by.



w30wcf

https://www.44winchestercenterfirec...9/03/09/44-HV-Replication-Loads-of-Yesteryear


Also, look back at the targets I posted and review target #181...right target head shots. 200gr Lasercast at 1,500fps @ 100 yards at barely +P loads....well below the +P+ 22,000psi SAAMI from yeasteryears HV factory loads. No leading!
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6587437&postcount=26

 

[Savvy_Jack]

Today's 44-40 results. 100 yards
Lyman's 47 listed 23.5gr of RL-7 with a 240gr lead bullet as well as Lee's 44-40 three die set pamphlet, 1995 Hercules data and 2005 Alliant data. All four show the same results. 24" barrel, 1,290fps @ 12,100cup

I used 25gr which could push this load just inside +P loads
Marlin 1894CB 26" barrel, scoped for my old eyes.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Here's a picture of a box of vintage (1920s/1930s) ammo for the Winchester 1892.

Notice the statement in red.

Apparently these rounds had the reputation of taking the sideplates off Winchester 1873s if people didn't heed the warnings.