44-40 contradictions
- Thread starter kcub
- Start date
Savvy_Jack
New member
Yes it is, I checked the box to continue...anything else?
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Driftwood Johnson
New member
I had the chance to examine one of the 44 Mag '73s a couple of years ago. It was on the shelf right next to a '73 chambered for 45 Colt if I recall correctly. As far as I could tell, there was absolutely no difference between the frames of the 44 Mag and the 45 Colt. They both appeared to be the same thickness to me. Which makes the most sense, manufacturing wise. It would cost a lot more to beef up the frame of one chambered for 44 Mag instead of just using the same components as was in a standard one chambered for 44-40 or 45 Colt. Interestingly enough, going to the Uberti website, the suggested retail price for the 44 Mag model is the same as the suggested retail price of the 45 Colt, 44-40, and 357 Mag versions. Which tells me there is no difference in the components, other than the chambering of the barrel. Bear in mind, all these guns are proofed in Italy to European standards, which are slightly higher than SAAMI specs. That means the guns have survived a proof charge of about 1/3 more pressure as the standard maximum pressure for the cartridge in question. However how well the gun will stand up to the continued pounding of 44 Mag loads over time is a completely different question. I remember one time a buddy bought a used Uberti '73 chambered for 357 Mag. He brought it back when he discovered a crack in the frame. No idea why it was cracked, but the suspicion was that the frame gave way after too many full power 357 Mag loads.
Regarding how thin the pins are, when a toggle link gun is properly set up, the thrust of recoil is spread out by the ends of the toggle links against the mortises in the frame, not the pivot pins. Yes, I have chatted with Steve of Steve's guns before, he certainly knows what he is talking about. But historical evidence has shown that with the brass framed guns, the '66 and the Henry, the brass frame is fairly likely to stretch with heavy loads. The steel framed '73 or Henry less so. But any of these rifles, steel framed or brass framed, will give years of service when fired with ammunition that does not exceed SAAMI spec for pressure. You do not have to restrict them to cowboy or 'cowgirl' loads.
Savvy_Jack
New member
Driftwood, glad to hear. I remember when CapNBall posted his video on youtube back in November 2011 comparing factory hunting loads for thr mag and the -40. There was a lot of talk back then but I gave up following it. You might remember I kind of went through the same issues with the Uberti "Buckhorn" revolver. I use it for the 44-40 but when I use the magnum cylinder, I keep it simple.
ratshooter, thanks and I hope you enjoy it.
ratshooter, thanks and I hope you enjoy it.
Savvy_Jack
New member
Saturday's shoot was very promising. I was very pleased with the results. Today I tested Winchester, Magteck and Buffalo Bore factory ammunition as well as a few more handloads. The below photograph is targets 177 thru 182 ALL 100 YARDS. Temp 45deg, cloudy and humid, no wind.
Rifle, 24" Marlin 1894CB with a scope, bench rest
#177 - Magtech Box 44-40A, Avg. 975fps with 3 1/2" Group, ES 77
#178 - Winchester Super-X, Avg. 1,055fps with 4 1/8" Group, ES 41
#179 - Winchester 200gr JSP/27.5gr RL-7, Avg. 1,436fps, ES 48, 1 3/4" to 3 3/4"Group....est pressure 16,754psi CIP
#180 - Laser Cast 200gr Hard Cast/28gr RL-7, Avg. 1,500fps, ES 45, 2"Group....est pressure 19,000psi CIP....approx 14,000psi SAAMI
#181 - Buffalo Bore's #44-40-200-HC factory ammunition, Avg. 1,336fps, ES 29, 1 1/4" to 2 1/4" Group....pressure claims to be below 11,000psi SAAMI
#182 - Sierra 210gr JSHP/26gr RL-7, Avg. 1,382fps, ES 53, 1 3/4" Group.....est pressure 18,000psi CIP...approx 13,000PSI SAAMI
Rifle, 24" Marlin 1894CB with a scope, bench rest
#177 - Magtech Box 44-40A, Avg. 975fps with 3 1/2" Group, ES 77
#178 - Winchester Super-X, Avg. 1,055fps with 4 1/8" Group, ES 41
#179 - Winchester 200gr JSP/27.5gr RL-7, Avg. 1,436fps, ES 48, 1 3/4" to 3 3/4"Group....est pressure 16,754psi CIP
#180 - Laser Cast 200gr Hard Cast/28gr RL-7, Avg. 1,500fps, ES 45, 2"Group....est pressure 19,000psi CIP....approx 14,000psi SAAMI
#181 - Buffalo Bore's #44-40-200-HC factory ammunition, Avg. 1,336fps, ES 29, 1 1/4" to 2 1/4" Group....pressure claims to be below 11,000psi SAAMI
#182 - Sierra 210gr JSHP/26gr RL-7, Avg. 1,382fps, ES 53, 1 3/4" Group.....est pressure 18,000psi CIP...approx 13,000PSI SAAMI
I talked to Uberti representatives and while the dimensions of the receivers is the same, the steel isn't. The 44 mag leverguns have a stronger steel frame which won't take the case hardening look treatment which is why they are only available in blued. Further, I talked to Uberti CS and they don't recommend firing a steady diet of full power 44mag loads because it could loosen the action (read oval the holes in the toggle links and/or beat up the pins).
Savvy_Jack
New member
Zipspider, not everyone shoots at steel. Not everyone shoots a steady dose of heavy loads (cept me).
It either can be done or can not be done, either way there are always exceptions.
On another note....
Its funny when I ask questions or post something that has already been posted, I get yelled at for not using the search engine. But then when I do use the search engine and reply to an old topic, I get yelled at for reviving an old thread.
It either can be done or can not be done, either way there are always exceptions.
On another note....
Its funny when I ask questions or post something that has already been posted, I get yelled at for not using the search engine. But then when I do use the search engine and reply to an old topic, I get yelled at for reviving an old thread.
Some of us like to shoot steel at long ranges using a tang with target aperture in the rear and precision front sight (like a globe) up front. I've found that my full power 158grn 357mag loads remain accurate out at 300 yds while lower powered ones will drift more.
I never said all everybody does is shoot steel. And I'd hazard to guess those that shoot 44-40's out to 300 yards would be the minority...yikes some people get triggered easily. Shoot what you like if the rifle can handle it but I imagine hot loads are more for just "cuz I can" than anything besides maybe hunting.
Savvy_Jack
New member
If it is at 300 meters, it survives cause I can't even see 300 meters...
There is a time and place for everything and folks need to just let folks do what they do. If folks don't like it, move on and let it go.....
Yes, as can be seen in the targets I posted, sometimes it takes a strong load to reach out with accuracy weather it is 100 yards, 300yds or even 1,000 yards for the Buffalo guys....Sometimes it even takes a stout load to hit something big in close like a wild bore......piss-ant Winchester factory loads just don't cut the mustard. Shooting mouse farts at steel targets has it's place too.....I love it all!!!
Folks say if ya want 44 magnum performance, go get a 44 magnum. Well that can go both ways, if folks want 44 Henry performance, go get a 44 Henry ;-)
Know the firearm, know what it is capable of and it's limitations.
Back to the original post from back on 2015
kcub
After about 1960, Winchester neutered their ammunition down to 1860 Henry ballistics. Even though smokeless powder loads can replicate black powder loads below SAAMI max pressure, the pressure curve or "Spike" is not the same. Also, early bores came in many diameters like .424, .426, .427. The problem with this is that if a person uses the more popular .429-.430 soft lead bullets, jacketed as well......squeezing them down the tighter bore can cause the chamber pressures to exceed max pressures for those firearms. Both rifle and revolver. This was the exact concern with Buffalo Bores current manufactured loads that replicate original black powder velocities but using a hard cast lead bullet. If this cartridge is used in a tight bore, it could exceed SAAMI max pressures but perfectly safe for all and any firearm and replica there-of with the more modern larger diameter bores.
For the 44-40, Lyman's 49th reports using a 6" Universal Receiver for the revolver loads and the 24" barrel rifle for the rifle loads. The rifle is not a pressure test barrel so they must have used some other testing program. SAAMI lists a 16" pressure test barrel for pressure testing their standards while Lymans 3rd Pistol & Revolver lists the 6" with a 1-20 twist.
I also talked to an Uberti rep about the revolvers and was told the 44 magnum buckhorn cylinders, 44-40 cylinders, 45 colt cylinders and the 45 ACP cylinders were all made from the same steel. If it's a lie, he told it! I have no idea about the rifles....and is why I use a Marlin with my load developments. I also use a 20" MGM 1 1/4 thick barrel for my out of this world loads.
Surf this site for a while https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/
My mind just went blank, chalk it up to old age I guess so I will stop there!!!
My youtube videos,44-40 MGM test barrel and custom platform
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN6undl4ZgI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CiUFqhsFcg
There is a time and place for everything and folks need to just let folks do what they do. If folks don't like it, move on and let it go.....
Yes, as can be seen in the targets I posted, sometimes it takes a strong load to reach out with accuracy weather it is 100 yards, 300yds or even 1,000 yards for the Buffalo guys....Sometimes it even takes a stout load to hit something big in close like a wild bore......piss-ant Winchester factory loads just don't cut the mustard. Shooting mouse farts at steel targets has it's place too.....I love it all!!!
Folks say if ya want 44 magnum performance, go get a 44 magnum. Well that can go both ways, if folks want 44 Henry performance, go get a 44 Henry ;-)
Know the firearm, know what it is capable of and it's limitations.
Back to the original post from back on 2015
kcub
True....was a great feature for the 44-40....one ammo, two firearms. We have to remember one thing...original black powder ballistics(rifle)...1,300fps+- with a 200gr lead bullet with great accuracy out to 300+ meters (reported 1,000 yards to penetrate 4" pine boards). Same ammo in a revolver produced nearly 1,000fps.
Yes, in 1903 the High Velocity cartridge was introduced using a jacketed soft point bullet. Pressures were reported to be 22,000psi and not safe for early rifles like the Winchester 73' or any revolver. Over time, even this ammunition was neutered like Remington's "High Velocity" ammo good for all firearms. This is NOT the same ammo ballistics originally manufactured before WWII up thru about 1950.
After about 1960, Winchester neutered their ammunition down to 1860 Henry ballistics. Even though smokeless powder loads can replicate black powder loads below SAAMI max pressure, the pressure curve or "Spike" is not the same. Also, early bores came in many diameters like .424, .426, .427. The problem with this is that if a person uses the more popular .429-.430 soft lead bullets, jacketed as well......squeezing them down the tighter bore can cause the chamber pressures to exceed max pressures for those firearms. Both rifle and revolver. This was the exact concern with Buffalo Bores current manufactured loads that replicate original black powder velocities but using a hard cast lead bullet. If this cartridge is used in a tight bore, it could exceed SAAMI max pressures but perfectly safe for all and any firearm and replica there-of with the more modern larger diameter bores.
This is the result of years of mis-informations, capitalism, on a sport that doesn't need high performance ammunition, without explanations. History has been lost.
Early 1800's (1,300fps) documentations used the 24" barrel but the chronographs were poor and they failed to document if it was measured from the muzzle or out to 50 feet. Early results claimed 50 feet and in 1945(I think) it was changed to "at the muzzle" increasing the velocity from the 1870's 1,245 to a more modern 1,301. Many modern companies fail to disclose the barrel length information although I have seen the majority validated by using the "Universal Receivers" (pressure test barrels) of various lengths by reloading manuals.
For the 44-40, Lyman's 49th reports using a 6" Universal Receiver for the revolver loads and the 24" barrel rifle for the rifle loads. The rifle is not a pressure test barrel so they must have used some other testing program. SAAMI lists a 16" pressure test barrel for pressure testing their standards while Lymans 3rd Pistol & Revolver lists the 6" with a 1-20 twist.
I also talked to an Uberti rep about the revolvers and was told the 44 magnum buckhorn cylinders, 44-40 cylinders, 45 colt cylinders and the 45 ACP cylinders were all made from the same steel. If it's a lie, he told it! I have no idea about the rifles....and is why I use a Marlin with my load developments. I also use a 20" MGM 1 1/4 thick barrel for my out of this world loads.
Surf this site for a while https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/
My mind just went blank, chalk it up to old age I guess so I will stop there!!!
My youtube videos,44-40 MGM test barrel and custom platform
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN6undl4ZgI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CiUFqhsFcg
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The 1873 was never chambered in 45colt. Obviously not in 44mag either. New manufactured guns maybe be held to a different standard. You would not rechamber an old genuine Winchester 73 to 44mag. I never even seen a repro in 44mag!
I think it was already pointed out the area to beef up on a 73 rifle is the toggle link. Not a question of frame thickness.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
I am completely aware the original 1873 Winchester was never offered chambered for 45 Colt. I was talking about comparing an Uberti replica chambered for 45 Colt to an Uberti replica chambered for 44 Mag.
As far as I could tell, without detailed measurements, the dimensions looked pretty much the same.
Regarding frame strength vs toggle strength, do not forget all the old toggle link rifles had what would be essentially skeletonized frames. Take the sideplates off and there is a big empty hole where the side plates were. Not the best situation for strength. The Model 1892, on the other hand had a solid frame, which would be much stronger then the skeletonized frame of the '73. The first '73s had iron frames. At some point this was changed to steel. Even so, it would not be a high strength, modern steel.
A bunch of years ago a friend bought a used Uberti 1873 rifle chambered for 357 Magnum. When he got it home, he found a crack in one side of the frame. Nothing wrong with the toggles, but the frame was cracked. Probably from too many full house 357 Magnum loads. He took it back and got his money back. Bottom line is, with a skeletonized frame, a '73 is not going to be as strong as a rifle with a solid frame, all other things being equal.
Bottom line is if you fire continuous stout loads in a weapon that was never meant to have that many hot loads slung out of it then you will eventually have issues. Also, if you NEED to fire hot loads going over sammi specs to get the best accuracy then that is on you or the rifle. Nobody should have to go over standard pressure to get good accuracy or maybe you need to move up a caliber.
Savvy_Jack
New member
You still dont get it do you? What part of 1903 factory manufactured 44-40 high velocity loads that produced 22,000 psi do you not understand? Perfectly safe for stronger guns namely the Winchester 92. Same with the 45-70.
SAAMI max loads dont always just limit the cartridge but it also takes in to account the limits of the the weapons that use it.
SAAMI max loads dont always just limit the cartridge but it also takes in to account the limits of the the weapons that use it.
Savvy_Jack
New member
It's not always SAAMI max that is the problem
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/05/how-to-shear-your-scandium-44-mag-revolver-in-half/
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/05/how-to-shear-your-scandium-44-mag-revolver-in-half/
What don't I get? We are talking about the same thing here. Stout loads in equipment not made for it shot over the long term. Once made 100 year old ammo withstanding. Nobody should have to go over standard pressure to get good accuracy or maybe you need to move up a caliber. I neve rsaid SAAMI is the be all but it's what we got for pressures. You quote an article where they have no idea how the pistol broke, just a guess as some sort of evidence?