44-40 contradictions

[kcub]

One of the original attributes was to have ammo commonality between revolver and rifle.

In Cartridges of the World they mention a factory peppier load "for rifles only".

Today most ammo is cowgirl @ 725 fps. And then there is Winchester jsp at 1190 fps. Is it safe in revolvers? Also there is Magtech blue box @ 1180 with a lead flatnose bullet. Safe in revolvers? Will it lead a barrel?

At what barrel length are these velocities measured?

 

[Art Eatman]

The .44-40 is factory loaded to be safe in early SAA Colts and (I guess) 1873 Winchesters. So, slow.

Unless the lead is really soft, 1,180 shouldn't cause a leading problem. I have no clue as to the safety. Sounds a bit too hot, just offhand guessing. Probably safe in a Model 92 or modern replica.

 

[Dufus]

From what I have seen is that those velocities would be rifle.

The 44-40 is limited to approximately 13,000 psi.

The original loading with 40 gr black powder shows about 1200 fps from a 24" barrel.

Whether they are safe in a handgun depends solely on the handgun IMO.

If Colt chambered it in their SAA, then all factory loads would be safe as the pressures are about the same as the 45 Colt. Not to be confused with the warmer loads as they are called for the Ruger only which bumps up to 30,000 psi

 

[Jim Watson]

I am pretty sure the "cowboy" stuff listed at 725 fps was shot in a pistol.
The "standard" load at 1190 fps is from a rifle barrel.

Either is meant to be safe in a revolver or an 1873 Winchester, with all appropriate Internet Timidity about the black powder guns you might have laying around... that Grandpa shot smokeless in every time he could afford it.

I don't think there are any of the high velocity, high speed, high power loads meant for 1892 Winchester (and likely 1894 Marlin) being made any more.

 

[kcub]

The blue Magtech box has a footnote saying the 1180 fps was taken from a 24" barrel.

 

[mehavey]

"We first see these new improved performance cartridges in Winchester’s Catalog #70 dated March, 1903. Cartridges were head stamped .44 W.C.F. W.H.V. ’M92. Velocity with a 200 gr. metal patched bullet was catalogued at 1,500 f.p.s. in a 24” barrel. Instructions in Winchester’s catalogue and on the cartridge boxes indicated they were not for use in ’73 Winchesters or handguns. Velocity was increased to 1,570 f.p.s. in 1910."
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/44wcf.htm

Botton Line:Times change...quarter century after first appearance as 'dual-use'.

 

[kcub]

The reason I keep mentioning MagTech blue box is because there is also a MagTech white box at the really low cowboy velocity. There is also low velocity Winchester cowboy 44-40, so we have 2 different loads or the same double standard times 2 different ammo companies.

 

[Kosh75287]

I don't have my Cartridges of the World book near me, so I'm working from memory, here:

If memory serves, the 44-40, loaded with 40 grains black powder and 205 (200?)gr. bullet did as was said, about 1180 f/s from a 24" barrel (a slight improvement on the .44 Henry rimfire, in a reloadable case). From a revolver barrel, the load lost @ 25% + 5% of that velocity, depending on the revolver's barrel length.

A "modern" loading, consisting of a 200gr. JSP with smokeless powder, gave a M.V. of 1310 f/s from a 24" barrel. It seems they cautioned against using them in made before the advent of smokeless powder, though they were said to be okay in the lever rifles. I would have expected the reverse, given the flimsy toggle on the 1873 Winchester, and the generally solid construction of most single-action .44-40s. It could be that the jacketed factory loads were only intended for use in M1892 Winchesters.

 

[Jim Watson]

In 1939 the standard .44-40 load was a 200 gr bullet (lead, full jacketed (WHY?), or softpoint) at 1300 fps.

In 1974 Ken Waters was getting 1245 fps with factory loads and 1300 in some handloads he considered safe in 1873s etc.

The 1939 catalog also lists hotter stuff, footnoted in the price list as "Higher power cartridges than usual."
Winchester 1892 W.H.V. with a 200 at 1565
Peters High Velocity with a 200 at 1600
Remington Hi Speed with a 160 at 2000

I would not want to shoot those in an 1873 or an old wrought iron Frontier Six Shooter.


Peters claimed 918 fps for their standard load in a pistol but that must have been in a solid test barrel because Ken Waters only got 798 in a real New Service, a 7.5" at that.


I think the present crop of "Cowboy Loads" is meant more to relieve the tenderfeet of recoil than to protect old guns, which they warn against using with anything.

 

[Mike Irwin]

After the Winchester Model 1892 was introduced, several ammunition companies started loading higher pressure, higher velocity rounds specifically for that rifle.

Rounds included the .44-40, possibly the .38-40, and the .32-20.

Boxes were marked that the ammo was NOT to be used in either revolvers or in Winchester 1873 rifles.

Then, as now, people are generally too stupid to read, pay attention, etc., and people blew up their revolvers and blew the side plates off their Model 1873s.

These days people would immediately sue, back then they generally kept their mouths shut out of embarrassment.

The higher pressure rounds were loaded for a number of years, but I don't think they made it back into production after World War II.

Companies also loaded higher pressure, higher velocity rounds for the .45-70, intended for use in the Model 1886 Winchester.

 

[Jim Watson]

There were HV, HS, and WHV .38-40s.

Also .32-20 and some of them stayed in production until 1960 or so.
So be careful what you shoot old stock .32-20 80 gr JSP in.

 

[Malamute]

The factory jacketed soft point loads that showed 1250-1300 fps in rifles showed 975 fps from a 7 1/2" barreled pistol in the older ballistics charts from WWII through the 70's at least. That was considered safe in all rifles and pistols.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

For what it's worth, I bought this Marlin Model 1894, manufactured in 1895, back around 1975.

The only 44-40 ammo the store had on hand was this box. There are still a couple of rounds in the box. This stuff did not hurt the old Marlin.

Regarding the strength of a toggle link rifle (Henry, Winchester Model 1866, Winchester Model 1873), don't be fooled by what you read on the internet.

Yes, the toggle link lock up is not strong compared to a Model 1892 Winchester, , but if the rifle is in good condition and the links line up properly, an old toggle link rifle is much stronger than the old iron frame Colts. It gets down to how much metal is surrounding the chamber. The thickness of the barrel of an old Winchester results in a lot of metal surrounding the cartridge, while the chamber walls of a revolver are very thin. Couple that with how thin the metal is at the cylinder locking latch, and that is why the original 40 grain 45 Colt load was reduced to 30 grains of powder by the Army. Some of the early Colts with their malleable iron cylinders were blowing up with the 40 grain load.

That old Marlin of mine is a very strong design, almost as strong as a Model 1892 Winchester.

 

[Art Eatman]

My Frontier Colt SAA, 1903/Second generation, does just fine with today's standard factory load.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

My Frontier Colt SAA, 1903/Second generation, does just fine with today's standard factory load.

Howdy Again

If it was made in 1903 it is a First Gen, not a Second Gen.

First Gen production ran from 1873 right up to 1940.

Second Gen production started in 1956, ran to about 1975 IIRC.

 

[B.L.E.]

I am pretty sure the "cowboy" stuff listed at 725 fps was shot in a pistol.

My experience with chronographing loads like that is that a rifle barrel only adds about 100 fps or so to the pistol velocity, if that much.
The pistol powders appropriate for loads such as this are pretty much expended in a pistol length barrel and the extra barrel length of a rifle pretty much just guides the bullet to the target.

 

[Savvy_Jack]

For what it's worth Buffalo Bore is now offering hunting loads more powerful than Winchester Super-X but remaining below SAAMI max pressures. They call them "Heavy" loads but they are not high pressure loads nor are they heavy grain bullets.

Although Tim sent me written permission to post anything from his site to anyplace I like, I will abide by the forum rules.

They offer two bullets, a 200gr Hard Cast and a 185gr Hollow Point
Here is a brief description of the ballistics of the 200gr HC;

200gr Hard Cast

➤ 1,350 fps -- Winchester model 1892, 20-inch barrel, circa 1916
➤ 1,353 fps -- Uberti model 1873, 19-inch barrel, circa 1997
➤ 1,034 fps -- Ruger Vaquero (large frame), 7.5-inch barrel, circa 2003
➤ 1,036 fps -- Colt New Service, 7.5-inch barrel, circa 1905
➤ 980 fps -- S&W model 544, 5.5-inch barrel, circa 1980’s
➤ ??? fps -- Custom (Brian Pearce made) SAA replica, 5.5-inch barrel, circa 2017
➤ 949 fps -- Ruger converted 357 Mag. flat top (by Jack Huntington), circa 1959, 4.75-inch barrel

Full description can be found on Buffalo Bore's website or on my "non-vender" website
https://www.44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com/copy-of-ancient-history-pt-2-by-ed


I also want to add that early high velocity loads from the 1903-1945 era were rated at 22,000psi and not suitable for old weapons or revolvers as so stated on the boxes. Post WWII High Velocity loads such as the one from Remington from about 1960 were neutered down and safe for all rifles and revolvers.

No different that currently manufactured 45-70, 45 Colt, 38, 44 magnum, 44 special High Pressure Loads, ALWAYS read directions and warnings before using.

 

[COSteve]

Yes, the toggle link lock up is not strong compared to a Model 1892 Winchester, , but if the rifle is in good condition and the links line up properly, an old toggle link rifle is much stronger than the old iron frame Colts. It gets down to how much metal is surrounding the chamber. The thickness of the barrel of an old Winchester results in a lot of metal surrounding the cartridge, while the chamber walls of a revolver are very thin. Couple that with how thin the metal is at the cylinder locking latch, and that is why the original 40 grain 45 Colt load was reduced to 30 grains of powder by the Army. Some of the early Colts with their malleable iron cylinders were blowing up with the 40 grain load.

While it's true that the chamber contains the case and therefore a strong barrel will keep the barrel from failing, it's also true that the bolt thrust is what puts load on the action and the small pins on the '66 & '73 Winchester design will eventually oval out the holes in the links causing the actions to loosen with the continued use of higher pressure loads than it was designed for, i.e. over 14,000psi.

Before I got my '73 and '66 Ubertis, I talked to Steve of Steve's Guns. He works on a lot of CASS rifles and he's told me that continued use of high pressure loads in those actions will both stretch the frame and loosen the action over time. A stretched frame and/or loose action will eventually lead to a case failure which will spoil one's day. It's his job to fix them and so I figure he knows what he's talking about. I handload and keep my loads under 14,000psi for those 2 rifles but also have 2 Rossi 357mag M92s and I only shoot max pressure loads in them as their actions are fine with them.

 

[Savvy_Jack]

A while back folks were talking about the 73' chambered for 44 magnum. I don't have one nor have I kept up with the topic. I never did get the final information on what upgrades were made for the 44 magnum chambering that made it stronger or if those mods could be made to the 44-40.

 

[zipspyder]

I have to agree with everyone else. Keep the loads to cowboy or max std pressure and you will be fine. No reason to use hot loads unless hunting and then only out of the lever. They both go bang and hit the target if you do your part.