.38 Wadcutters
- Thread starter Radny97
- Start date
I won't say you're wrong, but my guess would be that, by the time the "button nose" is long enough to give any aid or guidance into the chamber, its what we would call a "semi-wadcutter".
And semi-wadcutters don't feed quite as smoothly as round nose bullets do. Or at least not in my hands...
Since we're talking .38 wadcutters. I intend to do some Ransom Rest accuracy testing of all the different hollow base wadcutters I can find. At present, I have some Albert's wadcutters, some Remington wadcutters, and my own cast wadcutters. Am looking for some of the Speer, Hornady, and Precision Delta wadcutters. Need 30 of each. If anyone has any of these, please PM me and I will either pay for them or trade you some of my bullets for them. Results of the testing will be shown on this site. Thanks.
Don
Don
Jim Watson
New member
I will see if I have any Speers left.
Here ya go Sevens. Found on another of his pages on the 38WC loads. I knew I had read it. And I am sure the "button nose" he is referring to is the bullet with the slighly extended protrusion on the face of the bullet.
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Button nose vs Button.htm
And in case you missed it in the other link I posted.
"With current Alliant Bullseye it takes 3.0-3.2 grs. to reach the same velocity you would expect to get with factory wadcutter loads. But accuracy deteriorates with the Hornady, Speer or Precision-Delta HBWC bullets if you try to load over 2.8 grs. for 720+/- 30 f.p.s.
The former Hercules Bullseye powder took only 2.7-2.8 grains to develop 750 +/- 30 f.p.s. from a 6-inch PPC gun with a flush-seated 148-gr. bullet, but that gets you only about 700-720 f.p.s. with current product which may not be enough to stabilize the bullet in 18-3/4 inch twist S&W's or to reliably function the S&W Model 52 or Colt Gold Cup with the standard factory recoil spring."
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Jim Watson
New member
Got maybe 300 Speer HBWC.
They are years, decades old.
Overall lube is still tacky, no oxidation.
They are years, decades old.
Overall lube is still tacky, no oxidation.
Carriertxv
New member
Sent an email still waiting to hear back.
Eddietruett
New member
I have found that the soft swaged HBWC tend to be a little more accurate at least for me than the cast non hollow base versions. In my experience with 2.7-2.8gr of Bullseye, the Speer, Hornady and Zero are all close with a slight edge going to the Zero Swaged at least for me in my guns. And if you buy the Zeros in bulk the prices is much more attractive than Speer and Hornady. I've not had good results using the plated HBWC from Berrys and I think the plating might keep the base from expanding and sealing the way the softer swaged bullets do.
WC's are about making a very clearly defined round hole in target paper. How they do that doesn't really matter much. However, HBWC's are usually pure lead and tend to be swaged and tend to be more accurate. They also tend to be a bit more expensive than cast DEWC's, that are usually not pure lead.
The load used is the same with either type. A 148 grain HBWC uses the same 2.5 to 2.8 of Bullseye(the classic .38 WC target load) as a 148 grain DEWC.
The load used is the same with either type. A 148 grain HBWC uses the same 2.5 to 2.8 of Bullseye(the classic .38 WC target load) as a 148 grain DEWC.
Jim Watson
New member
Except that you can load DEWC or "bevel base" a good deal hotter to replicate the old "service wadcutter."
Ed Harris says they have reformulated Bullseye and you will likely need 3 grains to make 750 fps.
Ed Harris says they have reformulated Bullseye and you will likely need 3 grains to make 750 fps.
After doing a lot of accuracy testing with every different 38 cal. cast bullet I could get my hands on I have discovered that Lyman # 358432 is an accuracy sleeper.
I don't know it's history but stumbled on the mould on Ebay. Mine is the 160 grain version....it was also made in a 148 grain version.
I have about 30 moulds , Lyman , Ideal , Lee , Herters and RCBS , all different designs from 115 grains to 170 grains.
The Lyman 358432 160 grain is the most accurate out of three different S&W's and one Ruger. I wish I knew the history of it. NOE has re created this design and the instant I saw it I ordered a 4 cavity mould. This design is my favorite and if you have never tried it you need to.
I was sure Elmer Keith's 170 grin SWC design was going to win the accuracy award but the 358432 beats it out every time with every powder tried.
This bullet over 2.7 grains of Bullseye is good for 15 shot . one ragged hole groups , 1 1/4 inch across...it's spooky what this bullet and load does !
Gary
I don't know it's history but stumbled on the mould on Ebay. Mine is the 160 grain version....it was also made in a 148 grain version.
I have about 30 moulds , Lyman , Ideal , Lee , Herters and RCBS , all different designs from 115 grains to 170 grains.
The Lyman 358432 160 grain is the most accurate out of three different S&W's and one Ruger. I wish I knew the history of it. NOE has re created this design and the instant I saw it I ordered a 4 cavity mould. This design is my favorite and if you have never tried it you need to.
I was sure Elmer Keith's 170 grin SWC design was going to win the accuracy award but the 358432 beats it out every time with every powder tried.
This bullet over 2.7 grains of Bullseye is good for 15 shot . one ragged hole groups , 1 1/4 inch across...it's spooky what this bullet and load does !
Gary
Almost forty years ago, the late Ken Waters was testing some revolvers for accuracy using hollow-base wadcutters when he reported having the following disconcerting experience after determining some extreme anomalies with the velocities being registered by his Oehler Model 31 chronotach: "...Walking downrange to have a look at the target, I encountered surprise number two. Lying on the floor of my indoor range were the just-fired wadcutter bullets, each with a hole clear through it from end to end. Staring at these in wonderment, I suddenly realized what had happened. The extreme deep hollow bases had allowed the thin center web to shoot out at higher velocity, triggering the chronograph screens, while the main cylindrical portion of the bullet, acting like a sabot, had dropped off.
"Hard on the heels of that thought came the realization that one of these tubular bullets might well have lodged in the barrel after the escape of driving powder gas through its center hole. Hurrying back to the shooting bench with that dread possibility in mind, I picked up the Ruger and checked the breech. And there it was. The fifth (and last) bullet fired had done just that, its hollow base flared out and wedged in the barrel breech, its center shot out!
"What if that had occurred with the first, second, third or fourth shot instead of the last round? Would the next shot blown out the cylinder wall or top strap? I don't know, but in pondering what the consequences might have been, I recalled those reports we've been hearing of late, of quality revolvers blowing up with light target loads with wadcutter bullets.
"There has been the usual nonsensical speculation as to whether the powder detonated in those cases, which didn't make any sense and which I didn't accept. The NRA's recent series of tests disproved that theory. Now I think we know the answer as to what really happened-an unnoticed obstruction in the barrel! No one checks the barrel of a revolver after each shot, yet there's no other way the presence of an obstruction such as this would be known.
"Those bullets were from an old lot produced by a manufacturer who went out of business, but this occurrence should furnish enough incentive to other makers of hollow-base wadcutters to investigate the possibility of it happening with their product. As a double check, I reran the same load tests, this time using solid-base wadcutters, and had no trouble whatsoever, obtaining fine accuracy and normal velocities..."
After reading this account all those many years ago, I have used only solid base wadcutter bullets when reloading for Bullseye competition, whether warranted or not.
"Hard on the heels of that thought came the realization that one of these tubular bullets might well have lodged in the barrel after the escape of driving powder gas through its center hole. Hurrying back to the shooting bench with that dread possibility in mind, I picked up the Ruger and checked the breech. And there it was. The fifth (and last) bullet fired had done just that, its hollow base flared out and wedged in the barrel breech, its center shot out!
"What if that had occurred with the first, second, third or fourth shot instead of the last round? Would the next shot blown out the cylinder wall or top strap? I don't know, but in pondering what the consequences might have been, I recalled those reports we've been hearing of late, of quality revolvers blowing up with light target loads with wadcutter bullets.
"There has been the usual nonsensical speculation as to whether the powder detonated in those cases, which didn't make any sense and which I didn't accept. The NRA's recent series of tests disproved that theory. Now I think we know the answer as to what really happened-an unnoticed obstruction in the barrel! No one checks the barrel of a revolver after each shot, yet there's no other way the presence of an obstruction such as this would be known.
"Those bullets were from an old lot produced by a manufacturer who went out of business, but this occurrence should furnish enough incentive to other makers of hollow-base wadcutters to investigate the possibility of it happening with their product. As a double check, I reran the same load tests, this time using solid-base wadcutters, and had no trouble whatsoever, obtaining fine accuracy and normal velocities..."
After reading this account all those many years ago, I have used only solid base wadcutter bullets when reloading for Bullseye competition, whether warranted or not.
USSR, I'm one of those Bullseye shooters you referred to but you are misinterpreting Ken Walter's observations. As mentioned, he was "surprised" to see the much higher than expected velocities being measured by his chronograph and, after the previously described observations, attributed same to the lesser weight bullets with shot-out centers have downrange. He was shooting loads using 148 grain hollow-based wadcutters seated over 2.4 grains of Bullseye powder with a light crimp (a fairly typical Bullseye shooting load with the emphasis being on accuracy). Because he was obtaining the expected and normal velocities of "700 to 750 feet per second" when shooting solid-based wadcutter bullets, the unexplained much higher velocities exhibited by the hollow-based wadcutter bullets were a mystery until he examined the bullets (as reported).
As I related, Mr. Waters said he was surprised by the "extreme anomalies with the velocities being registered" by his chronograph, explaining, "...Imagine my surprise when the always reliable Oehler Model 31 chronotach registered velocities averaging 1,024 feet per second! Reason told me this simply couldn't be, but the readings were consistently between 1,000 and 1,050 feet per second..."
As I related, Mr. Waters said he was surprised by the "extreme anomalies with the velocities being registered" by his chronograph, explaining, "...Imagine my surprise when the always reliable Oehler Model 31 chronotach registered velocities averaging 1,024 feet per second! Reason told me this simply couldn't be, but the readings were consistently between 1,000 and 1,050 feet per second..."
Bill DeShivs
New member
The CENTERS were traveling at high velocity.
The bullets wouldn't have been laying on the range floor if they were achieving 1000 FPS.
The bullets wouldn't have been laying on the range floor if they were achieving 1000 FPS.