357 Magnum Target Shooting.

[Drm50]

I don’t have a Ruger BH 357 anymore. I do all my Target 357 shooting with S&W
M27s and 148gr Lyman Button Nose Wad Cutters. Much easier to shoot than Ruger SAs. Then again I’m not shooting 200yds. I do have a 83/8” focused for 100 yds with 158 JHPs, was for deer but never use it. With irons I don’t shoot over 100yds at deer anyway.

 

[44 AMP]

The light 38 special loads with the hammer and 358429 bullets from the Blackhawk group several inches at 30 yards so seeing a spread of 3-5 feet at 80 yards was eye opening for me. I had no idea that groups would open up like that at greater distance. (Twist/Stability failure?)

I'd say its probably a stability issue, but not the stability of the bullet caused by the twist, but the stability of the shooter.

Offhand shooting is the least well supported position. Regular handgun sights are fairly coarse and some are very coarse, compared to rifle sights

Very tiny differences in exactly where the sights line up on the target, small differences you may not even be able to see, make a difference. At close range the difference may be inches or even less. At long range, the difference in point of impact may be several feet.

Fixed sights are regulated at the factory, for the most common bullet weight used in the caliber and for an industry standard distance. Generally speaking, this means neither an ultra heavy nor ultra light bullet and the usual distance is 25yds.

As to twist rates, bullet weights and velocity ranges, while this is something important in some rifle rounds, it is generally much less so in pistols rounds.

The usual twist rates in handguns, have been in use a long time. In .38 caliber twists ranging from 1-10" (9mm Parabellum) up to 1-18.75" (.357) have been working for bullets from 90gr to over 200grs with satisfactory results.

Consider this, we've all heard of how the heavy (for caliber) .22 bullets of 70+gr need a faster twist (1-7 or 1-9") for accuracy than the standard 1-12, 1-14" twists used for the light varmint bullets of 40-55gr, in pistols, the faster twist of 1-10" is used in 9mms, where, for generations bullets were 115-124gr, and the slower 1-14 to 1-18" twist rate was used in .38 Special /.357Mag where the usual bullet was, for generations, a 158gr.

Like wise in US .30 caliber miltary arms a 1-10" twist was adopted for the long heavy 220gr Krag bullets, and was kept (because it worked well enough) when the military went to the lighter 173gr and then 150gr, and if I remember correctly when they went to the M14 in 7.62x51 (.308 Win) the twist went to 1-12".

Another point to consider is that the bullets you're casting and the loads you're shooting simply might not be what they guns you are using "like best".

Finding the one load an individual gun shoots best is either a matter or serendipity or extensive testing.

So, before you go thinking it has to be the twist rate or something else, consider they biggest factor is the shooter and try some other bullet /powder combinations to see what they do.

Also, decide what your priority is, getting your guns to shoot your bullets the best they can, or getting them to shoot something the best they can.

and, also consider if you're going to start running the 125s, Bullseye powder is for light target loads (low speeds) up to midrange loads. Slower powders are for heavier, faster loads.

My go to powder for full house .357 (any bullet) is 2400. Do be aware that even with slow powders, the .357 case can hold more powder than the gun is happy with.

Good luck.

 

[L. Boscoe]

Target shooting with 357

I shoot 45 and 22 for bullseye, never thought of doing it
for 357. I will break out the 686 and see if it works for
BE. What you describe is well down the bullseye trail.

 

[Recycled bullet]

I'd say its probably a stability issue, but not the stability of the bullet caused by the twist, but the stability of the shooter.



Offhand shooting is the least well supported position. Regular handgun sights are fairly coarse and some are very coarse, compared to rifle sights



Very tiny differences in exactly where the sights line up on the target, small differences you may not even be able to see, make a difference. At close range the difference may be inches or even less. At long range, the difference in point of impact may be several feet.



Fixed sights are regulated at the factory, for the most common bullet weight used in the caliber and for an industry standard distance. Generally speaking, this means neither an ultra heavy nor ultra light bullet and the usual distance is 25yds.



As to twist rates, bullet weights and velocity ranges, while this is something important in some rifle rounds, it is generally much less so in pistols rounds.



The usual twist rates in handguns, have been in use a long time. In .38 caliber twists ranging from 1-10" (9mm Parabellum) up to 1-18.75" (.357) have been working for bullets from 90gr to over 200grs with satisfactory results.



Consider this, we've all heard of how the heavy (for caliber) .22 bullets of 70+gr need a faster twist (1-7 or 1-9") for accuracy than the standard 1-12, 1-14" twists used for the light varmint bullets of 40-55gr, in pistols, the faster twist of 1-10" is used in 9mms, where, for generations bullets were 115-124gr, and the slower 1-14 to 1-18" twist rate was used in .38 Special /.357Mag where the usual bullet was, for generations, a 158gr.



Like wise in US .30 caliber miltary arms a 1-10" twist was adopted for the long heavy 220gr Krag bullets, and was kept (because it worked well enough) when the military went to the lighter 173gr and then 150gr, and if I remember correctly when they went to the M14 in 7.62x51 (.308 Win) the twist went to 1-12".



Another point to consider is that the bullets you're casting and the loads you're shooting simply might not be what they guns you are using "like best".



Finding the one load an individual gun shoots best is either a matter or serendipity or extensive testing.



So, before you go thinking it has to be the twist rate or something else, consider they biggest factor is the shooter and try some other bullet /powder combinations to see what they do.



Also, decide what your priority is, getting your guns to shoot your bullets the best they can, or getting them to shoot something the best they can.



and, also consider if you're going to start running the 125s, Bullseye powder is for light target loads (low speeds) up to midrange loads. Slower powders are for heavier, faster loads.



My go to powder for full house .357 (any bullet) is 2400. Do be aware that even with slow powders, the .357 case can hold more powder than the gun is happy with.



Good luck.

I agree with you 100%.

I think the biggest error in this case may be operator error. That being said..

The fact is that when I shoot 155 Grain bullets at warp speed I can strike the plate five or six times out of each cylinder consistently when I was shooting at 80 yards. I was greatly entertained by very short time of flight. The gunfires and then almost immediately afterwards you can hear the bullet ricochet off of the steel plate. In fact the two sounds are so very close together.

And I did notice when fired from both the Blackhawk and the Smith & Wesson j frame that the light loads grouped several feet. This is far more than operator error when fired from these two handguns with my right hand holding the grips.

There was one exception with the light loads. I was shooting some flat nose 358429 with three grains of Tite group and that one once I held over about two feet could strike the plate consistently. The time of flight was long enough that I thought I missed and then I hear the "PING".

Also Little black fly midges kept getting under my safety glasses while I was shooting and they kept buzzing next to the amplified pickup from my electronic hearing protection. Bzzz bzzz.

I hope you all are having a good Sunday afternoon. Be safe.

 

[44 AMP]

And I did notice when fired from both the Blackhawk and the Smith & Wesson j frame that the light loads grouped several feet. This is far more than operator error when fired from these two handguns with my right hand holding the grips.

Possibly.

Possibly the load will not be as accurate as other loads in every gun.
Possibly your guns just don't shoot that load as well as they shoot other loads.

Possibly the lower velocity is allowing wind drift to be a more significant factor at longer ranges creating a greater dispersal of impact points (larger group).

The best method of finding out which variable is having the greatest impact on your results is to experiment, changing only ONE variable at a time.

I was shooting some flat nose 358429 with three grains of Tite group and that one once I held over about two feet could strike the plate consistently.

When you say "held over" do you mean putting your aiming point two feet above the target??

IF so, you're handicapping yourself. I use a different method of aiming at long range. Happy to explain my method, if you're interested.

 

[Schlitz 45]

I like to shoot 1/2 size steel silhouettes at 50/75/100 yards & try for bullseye shooting at 25 yards using my Dan Wesson revolvers & will try it with a snubbie for the challenge to see if I can hit anything at distance. Like my wadcutters for the paper & 158's loaded with H110 for the steel. Always fun to see how I do & I'm definitely the biggest variable in the equation. Haven't tried shooting paper at any long distances, may have to give it a shot, or six

 

[Recycled bullet]

Possibly.



Possibly the load will not be as accurate as other loads in every gun.

Possibly your guns just don't shoot that load as well as they shoot other loads.



Possibly the lower velocity is allowing wind drift to be a more significant factor at longer ranges creating a greater dispersal of impact points (larger group).



The best method of finding out which variable is having the greatest impact on your results is to experiment, changing only ONE variable at a time.







When you say "held over" do you mean putting your aiming point two feet above the target??



IF so, you're handicapping yourself. I use a different method of aiming at long range. Happy to explain my method, if you're interested.

"When you say "held over" do you mean putting your aiming point two feet above the target??

IF so, you're handicapping yourself. I use a different method of aiming at long range. Happy to explain my method, if you're interested."


Yes I noticed the bullets were striking short of the target I could see it kicking up sand when the bullets hit the ground.
So I decided to hold high and was able to hit it 3 out of 5 times with the two and a quarter inch j frame.

When the 357's hit the sand it looks like a meteor strike.

What is your secret method of sight alignment and sight picture?

 

[Recycled bullet]

I like to shoot 1/2 size steel silhouettes at 50/75/100 yards & try for bullseye shooting at 25 yards using my Dan Wesson revolvers & will try it with a snubbie for the challenge to see if I can hit anything at distance. Like my wadcutters for the paper & 158's loaded with H110 for the steel. Always fun to see how I do & I'm definitely the biggest variable in the equation. Haven't tried shooting paper at any long distances, may have to give it a shot, or six

Fantastic grouping with the Kimber k6. What kind of different loads have you shot with that gun? I have been resisting the temptation to purchase one.

 

[Schlitz 45]

Rb, I have my plinking wadcutter loads, steel target 158gr plated flat points, & 158 HP defense loads worked up for it, all use 357 brass. The Kimber Control Core grip covers & cushions the backstrap making full on magnum loads easy on the hand to shoot. It has THE BEST double action trigger pull of any revolver I have or have tried. I carry it on occasion & feel very comfortable with it. Try one & see what you think.

 

[44 AMP]

What is your secret method of sight alignment and sight picture?

Its no secret, its something Elmer Keith wrote about generations ago. Just seems to be something few people today think of doing.

Its simply a variation of the 6 o'clock hold.

With the usual 6 o'clock hold, you align the sights so the top of the front sight is level with the top edge of the rear sight, and centered in the notch, with your target on the top of the front sight.

Now, for long range shooting, you just raise the front sight above the rear sight, keeping your target on top of the front sight.

How much front sight you need to hold up is something you have to experiment to determine, for the range and load you are shooting. This method works with everything, and does not cover the target with either the sight or the muzzle of the gun the way aiming normally but above the target does.

You get a constant picture of where your front sight is, in relation to the target (and so can keep it centered) and the elevated front sight compensates for bullet drop.

Think of your sight picture forming an upside down "T" with the crossbar being the top edge of the rear sight and the upright is your front sight, with the target on the top.

Elmer went so far as to have King's Gunworks install gold bars on the front sight to give him consistent reference points on how much sight to hold up.

This method works, but takes trial and error to determine exactly how much sight to hold up, and be able to do it repeatedly. Some guns make this easier than others.

Shooting my 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt, with the load I use, at 200 yards, its not hard, because the amount I need to hold up (for that gun, load and range) is right at the bottom of the slope of the front sight, where the blade goes from being vertical to sloping upwards.

I have used this method with numerous guns, it works. With a Browning Hi Power 9mm, the amount of front "sight" I had to use to get on at 200 was a point on the slide about 1/2 inch behind the front sight. But I still had a full and complete view of the target and the top of the front sight right under it.

The exact amount you will need to hold up to get hits at the 80yd range you are shooting, will be different, with each different load, and each different gun, but the process works for everything.

Its not secret, its not magic, anyone can do it with some practice. I read Keith telling about how to do it over 50 years ago, and tried it. It works. After some practice, I got better at it, and have been using it for long range pistol shooting ever since.

Next time you go shooting steel at long range, try this, start with your normal sight picture, sights level, target on top, shoot and see how far below the target the bullet hits. Then, raise the front sight so about half of it is above the top of the rear sight with your target on top. Shoot and see how much closer to the target your bullet hits. If its still below the target, raise the front sight up a little more and shoot again. Repeat this until you walk your hits onto the target.

It is a better method for getting hits at long range (with iron sights) than aiming above your target and covering it with the muzzle.

Works with fixed sights, too. If you are shooting with adjustable sights, DON'T change your usual sight setting (unless you want to dedicate the gun to long range shooting) just raise the front sight and learn how much to use.

Kind of the elevation version of "Kentucky windage".

Try it, you'll see.

 

[Ricklin]

Classic

Good on Ya 44amp, you described old Elmer's method to a T for hitting at long range with a sixgun. It works with any iron sights.
The classics, they never go out of style or go away. They are often taught by a gray haired fella, showing the tacti cool kids how it is done.

 

[Recycled bullet]

Its no secret, its something Elmer Keith wrote about generations ago. Just seems to be something few people today think of doing.



Its simply a variation of the 6 o'clock hold.



With the usual 6 o'clock hold, you align the sights so the top of the front sight is level with the top edge of the rear sight, and centered in the notch, with your target on the top of the front sight.



Now, for long range shooting, you just raise the front sight above the rear sight, keeping your target on top of the front sight.



How much front sight you need to hold up is something you have to experiment to determine, for the range and load you are shooting. This method works with everything, and does not cover the target with either the sight or the muzzle of the gun the way aiming normally but above the target does.



You get a constant picture of where your front sight is, in relation to the target (and so can keep it centered) and the elevated front sight compensates for bullet drop.



Think of your sight picture forming an upside down "T" with the crossbar being the top edge of the rear sight and the upright is your front sight, with the target on the top.



Elmer went so far as to have King's Gunworks install gold bars on the front sight to give him consistent reference points on how much sight to hold up.



This method works, but takes trial and error to determine exactly how much sight to hold up, and be able to do it repeatedly. Some guns make this easier than others.



Shooting my 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt, with the load I use, at 200 yards, its not hard, because the amount I need to hold up (for that gun, load and range) is right at the bottom of the slope of the front sight, where the blade goes from being vertical to sloping upwards.



I have used this method with numerous guns, it works. With a Browning Hi Power 9mm, the amount of front "sight" I had to use to get on at 200 was a point on the slide about 1/2 inch behind the front sight. But I still had a full and complete view of the target and the top of the front sight right under it.



The exact amount you will need to hold up to get hits at the 80yd range you are shooting, will be different, with each different load, and each different gun, but the process works for everything.



Its not secret, its not magic, anyone can do it with some practice. I read Keith telling about how to do it over 50 years ago, and tried it. It works. After some practice, I got better at it, and have been using it for long range pistol shooting ever since.



Next time you go shooting steel at long range, try this, start with your normal sight picture, sights level, target on top, shoot and see how far below the target the bullet hits. Then, raise the front sight so about half of it is above the top of the rear sight with your target on top. Shoot and see how much closer to the target your bullet hits. If its still below the target, raise the front sight up a little more and shoot again. Repeat this until you walk your hits onto the target.



It is a better method for getting hits at long range (with iron sights) than aiming above your target and covering it with the muzzle.



Works with fixed sights, too. If you are shooting with adjustable sights, DON'T change your usual sight setting (unless you want to dedicate the gun to long range shooting) just raise the front sight and learn how much to use.



Kind of the elevation version of "Kentucky windage".



Try it, you'll see.

Thank you for sharing multiple times in this thread 44AMP!! I think that I'm going to have to try those live fire exercises next time I shoot.

Several years ago I tried something similar. I filled in some of the tiny steps on the front sight of the Magnum snubby with model car paint and a toothpick-guess and checked- so I could know exactly how much to offset the front sight with a particular load at a specific distance. Eventually my solution was to purchase better target guns as truth be told the Smith & Wesson model 60 is a fantastic inside the waistband concealed carry gun, it is terrible for actual range use especially with heavy bullet mass and powder charge loads. Interestingly I did find that 357 MAG 20 grains h110 and 110 grain jhp bullets shot to exactly the same point of aim as 38 SPL 148 grain Remington hollow base flush seated wadcutters with 3 grains of Winchester 231 at 20 yards. I have since quit painting my front sights white. I've painted the front sights black on several hand guns since I've been shooting at paper plates and I find that the difference in contrast reduces eye strain and difficulty for me maintaining sight picture/sight alignment.

The rear sight is bottomed out completely on both of my Ruger Blackhawks. I think that means my front sight is not tall enough. I have zeroed the 6.5 inch 357 Blackhawk at 50 yards and at 80 I was still aiming dead center to strike the steel plate. I like how flat shooting that gun is!!!

Also had some fun shooting at one of those orange plastic targets that supposed to jump when you hit it. The deep hollow point 357 blue bullets cut out holes like it had been hit with a hole puncher. Also shot at it with a 22 long rifle, the 22s were getting stuck in the orange plastic.

 

[44 AMP]

The rear sight is bottomed out completely on both of my Ruger Blackhawks. I think that means my front sight is not tall enough.

Maybe.

Maybe the load you are shooting is just so far outside the usual that its outside the sight's range of adjustment.

Or, maybe you just look through your sights differently than other people do.

It is seldom mentioned, some people say its not a real thing, or "can't happen", but in my experience, it does, or something does that is explainable that way.

My Father used the center hold. IT worked for him, if he wanted to hit the center of the target (standard bull, normal range) he aimed so the top of his front sight was in the middle of the target.

For whatever reason, when I did that with his guns, I hit the top of the bull. For ME to hit the center with his sight setting, I had to aim at the bottom of the bullseye (6 o'clock hold).

His "explanation" for that was that I looked through the sights differently than he did.

another example of this phenomenon, friend of mine and I, shooting .30 cal bolt guns, scoped, 100yds approx, field positions (not off a bench or rested), to make a game, we traded rifles every other shot. Turned out that we were both, consistently 1/2" off point of aim, shooting the other guys rifle.  

IF possible, have someone else shoot your gun(s) and see where they hit with your sight settings. Might be an eyeopener! Might not be.

can't say just where the rear sight on my Blackhawk is, in its up/down range, other than I know its not bottomed or topped out.

 

[rc]

If you are shooting cast lead out of a 357 magnum try HP38 or W231. About 5.5 grains will be above 1000fps with a lot less flash and blast than with something like 296. Accuracy is usually very good.

 

[Recycled bullet]

How much of a difference in point of impact can be made due to the difference in case length and the resultant different jump to reach the throats in the cylinder?

I have a nagging suspicion that 357 starline cases group better than 38 special Remington Peters cases when shot out of my Ruger Blackhawk.

I feel good about 5 grains of bullseye with 125 grain powder coated hollow point loaded in 357 brass. Then I can make a reduction in the powder charge to load them in 38 special brass and compare on Target.

Also...These light loads might end up being very fun to shoot in the Ruger 77/357.

 

[44 AMP]

How much of a difference in point of impact can be made due to the difference in case length and the resultant different jump to reach the throats in the cylinder?

how much difference do you think there is, anyway???

using the data from my old Lyman manual the difference in max case length between .38 Special and .357 Magnum cases is 0.14" The often quoted number is 0.135" which I think is what the cases are actually made to, to stay under the listed max.

HOWEVER, this is not the difference between the listed max length of the loaded rounds.

The difference in max loaded length spec is only 0.04"

SO, if you load the same bullet to max loaded length in both the .357 and the .38 Special, the Special will only be 0.04" shorter.

As far as I know, no one has ever proven that small a difference makes a measurable difference down range.

 

[rc]

Guns recoil in your hand before the bullet leaves the muzzle. It takes longer for slower bullets to leave the barrel so slower loads exit at a higher angle and hit higher on target for a given sight setting. If you are hitting way too low, slow it down! If way too high, speed it up. I don't think case length alone does diddly to change point of impact. Just my 2cents.

231 can safely push loads out of a 357 carbine to above 1300fps. Took a coyote with my 231 swc plinking load a few years back. It's a bit slower powder than bullseye suitable for many calibers. Unique, AA7, AA9 and AA4100 are good alternatives to 296 out of magnum pistol. In a rifle if you want top speeds, 296 is best but even in a 6 inch barrel faster medium speed powders like Blue Dot actually tend to produce higher speeds with lower charge weights. Accuracy will vary by load with 296 giving near optimum load density while 231 is more position sensitive. Blue dot fills cases well and many like it for 357 as a versatile powder.

 

[44 AMP]

231 can safely push loads out of a 357 carbine to above 1300fps.

Which is still a light load for a carbine.

2400 will push a 125 to 2200fps and 158s to the 1800s in a Marlin carbine. Max loads, yes, but safe.

 

[rc]

Yep, but with cast lead, speed is not your friend. 1300s is plenty powerful for plinking and close range varmint hunting. 231 is an economical and accurate powder in many calibers. Of course 2400 is better for gas checked loads pushed well over 1500fps from a rifle. Winchester 125gr JHP's will melt in flight when pushed to 2000fps. Just a Spatter of lead at 50. 231 can push soft the soft 125 JHPs to around 1500fps where they can still hold together.

 

[44 AMP]

Winchester 125gr JHP's will melt in flight when pushed to 2000fps.

No, they don't, sorry.

JHP = JACKETED Hollow Point

pure lead, and soft lead alloys, swaged or cast and speed don't play well together.

Hard lead alloys (cast) can be driven faster, with the right alloy and proper sizing the 1800s can be reached and with gas checks as much as 2200fps has been done without serious leading or bullets melting.

Every alloy has an upper end "speed limit" with pure and very soft lead alloys, that's black powder speeds. Hard cast slugs can be driven much faster but they also have an upper end speed limit, and its well below that of copper jackets.

Jacketed bullets have their own upper end speed limits as well. Not because of the material they are made from, but because of the way they are constructed.

Jacketed bullets that are designed to expand, are built to expand within a certain velocity range. Too slow and they don't expand, too fast and they expand violently, and too much, appearing to "blow up".

The .38cal (.357) 125gr JHP is a classic example of this.