.327 Magnum

[BillCA]

I don't think a Model 12 Airweight can handle the chamber pressure generated by a .327 Federal Magnum-I have a Model 12 and it is not recommended to even shoot .38+p in it

I agree... though I was thinking of the Model 12 as being a kind of template. S&W used to make a .32-20 M&P model in the pre-war days. I think an Airweight/Scandium M&P in .327 Magnum would be a big hit with the hiking & camping and perhaps fishing crowd. Especially with 4 power levels to choose from.

Actually Bill,

Your chart shows the versatility of the .357 mag since it encompasses what the 327 offers.
Not trying to be recalcitrant but why would you not want a .357?

The .357 is a truely versatile cartridge. If limited to just one caliber, that would have to be my selection.

However, for a small carry-gun, the .357 can be a real handful to use, especially in a single hand. In J or K frame guns, especially as we get older, the wrenching, jarring recoil can take a serious toll on joints. I'm not especially recoil sensitive - my favorite caliber being .41 Magnum - but I also recognize the .357 is not ideal for self-defense for a lot of shooters.

The .327 Mag puts out plenty of Whoop-a** out of a 3" barrel, beating the 9mm and it's comparable to the .40 S&W. By my calculations, the recoil falls in the neighborhood of a .38 Special in a steel frame Detective Special. This means it can be fired with one hand without the gun twisting out of your grip.

I emphasize one-handed shooting with a carry gun because I think in many cases that is what is likely to happen. One hand is likely to be used warding off an attacker, busy opening a door or carrying something. Or perhaps pushing/pulling a loved one out of danger. The .357 Magnum, in such cases, may be "too much" gun.

The .327 offers fast follow-up shots due to lower recoil too. This means a higher probability of scoring multiple hits on my attacker. In urban areas, the smaller, lighter bullet will, I think, tend to overpenetrate less and in the event of a miss, not carry as severe of a richochet hazard as the .357 mag. I'd be interested in how much energy is left after striking the narrow side of a 2x4 too (simulating wall penetration).

I can't comment on noise & flash yet, not having fired one, much less in low-light conditions. But I suspect it is no where near as nasty as the .357.

With pressures running in the 40,000 psi range, I'm not sure that the J-Frame can be beefed up to handle the round. A six-shooter would put the notches in the thin part of the chamber areas and there's not room for 7. Perhaps S&W will first introduce it in a "snubby" Model 16 or bring out a K-Frame Model "316" Scandium M&P 3" for it.

That's my $0.02.

 

[John Moses]

Bill,

Everything you say makes sense and there is nothing to disagree with. Well thought out post, chocked full of logic.

My point is that if you load the .357 down to .327 energy levels you will have similar flash and recoil.

With the .357 you also have a much wider selection of projectiles to choose from. Admittedly that can change with time.

I guess I just don't see the point. If you have an SP101 in .357 you can load it down to the weakest .38 special range and up to the hottest .357. And if you like the recoil/flash level of the .327 you can have that too.

Cheaper ammo and better resale value too. (for the foreseeable future)

 

[CraigC]

It offers similar performance to heavily loaded .32-20's in strong sixguns like the Colt SAA, replicas and custom Old Model Blackhawks yet fits into a six shot Single Six, can be loaded on existing carbide dies and brass should last a hell of a lot longer. It will shoot flatter than lightweight .357 loads and hit harder downrange. What's not to like???

 

[BillCA]

JM,

My only quibble with your statement is "loading down" the .357 to .327 levels... First, you can certainly do so, but it must be done with the realization that you're not "loading down" by very much. The much vaunted 125g .357 loads run about 1450~1500 fps producing about 585 ft-lbs of energy. The .327 cranks a 100g American Eagle round up to 1400 fps to get 435 of gee-whiz at the muzzle. Federal's 115 Gold Dot will zoom out at 1330fps giving 452 ft-lbs at the muzzle.

The biggest advantage, I believe, is that you can get very good performance out of a handgun with much lower recoil than before. If I can give my wife, girlfriend, daughter, son (or heck, even myself) a gun with near .357 ballistics that recoils like a standard pressure .38 (or less), then there is a significant advantage.

Again, I'll concede that the .357 is a more versatile cartridge at this point. We have not yet seen what handloaders can do with the .327 Magnum. I'm sure it can be downloaded to .32 S&W Long power levels. How much more it can be "pushed" remains to be seen. But with operating pressures in the 40,000 psi range, pushing this cartridge will have to be done very carefully.

The chart below shows the energy outputs from .32 S&W through .327 Mag compared to .38 Special & .357 Mag loads. I haven't tried to work up the recoil numbers for the SP-101 yet. If someone feeds them to me, I can make the chart.

If you shoot .38/.357 well and can use 125g out of your carry guns, then it offers you very little.

If you're recoil sensitive to the .357 Magnum or .38 +P loads, especially in a snubby, then the .327 might offer something much better for you than a .380 or .32 ACP.

I think that's the bottom line.

 

[CraigC]

The .327 cranks a 100g American Eagle round up to 1400 fps to get 435 of gee-whiz at the muzzle. Federal's 115 Gold Dot will zoom out at 1330fps giving 452 ft-lbs at the muzzle.

Also bear in mind that those numbers are from 3" barrels. Check out the Gunblast article on a custom Single Six and FA 97 to see what they do out of sporting length barrels. Almost 1600fps for the 115gr factory Gold Dot load out of the custom Ruger. Quite impressive. Handloading should reveal it to be quite the little gem.

http://www.gunblast.com/Freedom-Harton327.htm

 

[Smaug]

If someone feeds them to me, I can make the chart.

Hey Bill, how about just attaching the Excel file so we can ALL make fancy bar graphs!

 

[LanceOregon]

Why wait for the Ruger, when Charter Arms already has two .327 Mag models available.

They have both a stainless 2.2 inch snubnose model:

As well as a 4 inch target model of the same gun with fully adjustable rear sights:

 

[Wayward_Son]

Well then you'd have to shoot a Charter Arms.

And anyway, the cartridge is designed for the Ruger's 3" barrel. It would be underpowered out of the 2.2" barrel, and the 4" wouldn't be as concealable as the 3" SP101.

I'll wait for my Ruger.

 

[funon1]

It's not that the .327 will replace the .357

But it gives us one more viable choice that has a nice range of power/applications and an extra round of capacity given frames of similar size. I, personally, love the .32s as well as the .357s, .44s and 454s. There is some overlap in power and potential uses, and I see that as a good thing.

I see the .327 as a great defensive offering for those who either prefer a bit less power than the .357 but more than a .38 or prefer having an additional, smaller caliber just for fun. I don't need a .32, but I have a ton of old .32 ammo, so why not buy a gun in which to shoot it.

Thanks for the charts and all the thoutful input.

funon1

 

[John Moses]

Bill

Apparently I am dense and I thank you for being patient with one so addlepated.

It is my assertion that if you reload, the .357 platform, will do everything the 327 can and more.

I concede that if you do not reload, the .327 ammunition offerings may fit nicely into your shooting needs.

Are we in agreement?
Or are you saying that you cannot replicate .327 similar energy, flash, recoil with a .357?

Thanks
John Moses

 

[CraigC]

It is my assertion that if you reload, the .357 platform, will do everything the 327 can and more.

I concede that if you do not reload, the .327 ammunition offerings may fit nicely into your shooting needs.

I would say that exactly the opposite is true. Being that I own two .32H&R Single Sixes and a SAA replica .32-20 and handload but the only .357's that I own are destined to become something more useful. I see the .357 as too much and not enough.

 

[KennyF]

Wow!!! Great thread!!! Well thought out posts and very informative.

Thanks folks!

 

[akr]

Kenny, I will be more than glad to take credit for the whole thing. He he he.

 

[John Moses]

It is my assertion that if you reload, the .357 platform, will do everything the 327 can and more.

I concede that if you do not reload, the .327 ammunition offerings may fit nicely into your shooting needs.

I would say that exactly the opposite is true.

Craig...you are saying that the .357, which has MORE of a range of energy potential, is LESS versatile than the one of more LIMITED range of loading potential.

I am not getting that.

Isn't that like saying the the elevator that goes from the 3rd to the 7th floor is a more versatile transportation device than the one the goes from the 1st floot to the 11th?

 

[CraigC]

It is my opinion that the .357 is way too much blast and noise for the end result. Too much for "lesser" purposes and not enough for big game. While it does reasonably well for a wide range of purposes, it does not excel at any single purpose, except making noise and making your ears bleed. On the bottom end, the .327 will fit in a much smaller and lighter platform like the Single Six or a K-frame and shoot much flatter while hitting harder than the light bullet .357 loads. Making it ideal for every day packin'. On the upper end, a good .44 or .45 with moderate loads in the 900-1100fps range will handle 99% of anything that needs doing with greater ease than the mightiest of .357 loads and do so without the earsplitting blast.

Sorry, I just don't buy into the whole "the .357 does it all" philosophy and energy figures are all but meaningless. Energy doesn't kill, blood loss caused by a big hole is what kills.

 

[gak]

+1 What CraigC and funon1 have said. At the range or in the field, the .44 Special and downloaded .44 Mag is what gets fired the most - with a lot less obnoxiousness (?) at the wrong end of the "system" - with the same basic (practical) end results (at worst). I'm not arguing that the cost is the same; one of the unfair things in this life...some of the better, more useful things cost more than the lesser things.

I admit, with this stance, in some ways I'm arguing against my own mantra about how the extra (6th) shot out of a J or J+ platform in a .32 vs .38/.357 is a real sales point for me, as most .44s will only shoot 5 out of a roughly similar platform shooting 6 of the .38/.357 variety. Nevertheless....

And as far as the .32 format/platform goes -- at the smaller end of the useful caliber spectrum (we're talking centerfires here), I'm with CraigC on this one...especially in the new .327 (but also the .32 H&R in its own right), just enough to get the job done without wasting a lot of its useful energy on sturm und drang - in a tidy platform.

All that said, I like and use my .357s as well - for the reasons most owners of such do--yes they are very versatile cartridges/guns, no denying; it's just that the .44s (and .32s) are a lot more fun to shoot (or carry)--in their similar, respective formats they've been found most useful in.

 

[John Moses]

thanks for the response.


Yes it is true that

the .327 will fit in a much smaller and lighter platform like the Single Six or a K-frame

I have a K frame Smith in .357, a model 19...but that isn't really the point. Were you to download your .357 you can make it have the same or less blast. All the way down to the wimpiest 38 special energy that is as tame as a kitten.

With a similar size projectile you can almost identically replicate any .327 round...and more.

I am confused when you say

Energy doesn't kill, blood loss caused by a big hole is what kills.

yet don't like the bigger hole caused a more powerful round.

I also must disagree that

energy figures are all but meaningless

. A bullet is merely an energy transmitting device. The tissue damage is the result of energy absorbtion.

Of course I am thrilled that you found a round you like. I did too. I often carry a .357, which experience proves is one of the best manstoppers

 

[BillCA]

It is my assertion that if you reload, the .357 platform, will do everything the 327 can and more.

I concede that if you do not reload, the .327 ammunition offerings may fit nicely into your shooting needs.

Are we in agreement?
Or are you saying that you cannot replicate .327 similar energy, flash, recoil with a .357?

Almost...not quite.

If one handloads then you can get the .357 down to .32 S&W energies...best done in a .38 special case however... But then, I'm sure we could see the top end of the .327 Mag approach that of the .357. If the 115 grain Speer GDHP load is gaining 270 fps by simply going to a longer barrel, hot-rodding the actual load might give us even more - 1700? 1800?

1600 fps = 654 ft-lbs
1700 fps = 738 ft-lbs
1800 fps = 827 ft-lbs

It's not impossible to see this little critter break 2000 fps out of an 18" carbine at 1020 ft-lbs. But I digress... we speak of handguns.

For a first-time handgun buyer looking for a good self-defense and potentially a plinking gun, the SP-101 in .327 Mag would be a good choice. He has the ability to shoot at least 2 different and viable defensive cartridges (.327 and .32 H&R), plus .32 S&W Long for plinking fun and .32 S&W for whatever reason you can think of.

The recoil is low and the flash seems to be much less than the .357 Mag. It can be chambered in a small gun the wife/ girlfriend/ child can use handily and, in theory, it presents less ricochet/overpenetration hazard.

For people who have a .357 and are already vested in guns, ammo, equipment, the .327 probably doesn't add much. Unless you find yourself carrying a .357 Mag loaded with .38 +P ammo and wishing for something a little stronger without the full-goose gonzo magnum loads. And yes, a handloader can tailor his own defense loads, ignoring the potential of some prosecutorial problems.

Important note: We really don't know yet how well the .327 will work on the average bad guy, much less the mythical superhuman crackhead. We do know that the ballistic testing shows great penetration and performance, but taking animals might give us better clues.

 

[John Moses]

For a first-time handgun buyer looking for a good self-defense and potentially a plinking gun, the SP-101 in .327 Mag would be a good choice.

For people who have a .357 and are already vested in guns, ammo, equipment, the .327 probably doesn't add much.

Both are absolutely correct

 

[LanceOregon]

The bottom line here is that unless more gun manufacturers like Taurus and Smith & Wesson decide to support the .327 Mag, it is going to suffer the same fate as the .32 H&R Mag.

It would also need for more ammo makers than just Federal to produce it. You would need to have some competition in order for the price of the ammo to come down.

.