224 cal on deer...it worked in the 80's

[603Country]

I shot a few Texas-sized deer that fell over and actually vibrated when shot with the 220. And I shot a few that acted like they had not even been shot. That's about the time I decided to go back to my other rifle, which was a 270. The ranch foreman trusted my shooting and would ask me to go get camp meat or to just shoot does when I saw them (gave the meat to local schools back then), since the ranch had targeted herd reduction numbers. I was shooting 10 or more per day. Efficiency was important, and the 220 just wasn't efficient enough. The 270 was plenty efficient, and for the record, I was using those first generation Nosler Ballistic Tips.

The 220 was a hammer about 70% of the time. I was doing way too much tracking till I went to the 270.

That was a long time ago, and bullet choices are better now, but the 220 and the 223 are , to me, still marginal for deer.

 

[reynolds357]

If you were shooting the orig Nosler ballistic tips, you were pretty much shooting varmint bullets. I had one of their 140 7mm shot from a 7 Rem mag. fail to penetrate a white tail's shoulder blade. Knocked him down, I shot him again when he got up. Kind of disturbing to see a whitetail get up from being hit with a 7 Rem mag on the shoulder. More disturbing to find basically shotgun pellets when I dressed the deer. The deer looked more like it had been shot with bird shot than it looked like it had been shot with a rifle. The bullet literally did not make it 3" into a white tail. The follow up shot was a lung shot that did not exit.

 

[Barnacle Brad]

I may have posted a link to this site in another thread:
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase.html

My apologies if it is redundant, but thought the information regarding caliber, bullet and shot placement a very good resource. It reaffirms a lot of what has been discussed here.

Goat season starts in a few days...starting to get an itchy trigger finger!!!

 

[603Country]

Reynolds, I shot at least 100 deer with that original Nosler BT in my 270 and I don't think I lost a one. And I shot about that many with the new improved version. Going on memory, I lost 2 with the newer bullet. One was lost for 24 hours (slid under some leaves, with only a lower leg protruding). Other one was a slightly misplaced bullet and the nice buck wasn't found till some months later, unfortunately. The BT is an extremely accurate bullet and does a fine job on deer of all sizes. Shoot em in the lungs, not in the big bones. It's always easy to blame the bullet, though usually the blame belongs elsewhere.

But...for the record, the 55 gr Nosler BT is not good for deer. It truly is a varmint bullet.

 

[Signal-0]

I love using the AR15 for deer hunting. My go to load is the Speer 70gr Semi-Spitzer with 26.0grs of W-748... I've provided close friends with this load and to date, I've lost count as to how many deer and hogs and fell victim to this round.

I think all of agree on the following:

1. Shot placement is critical and important.
2. Caliber size never substitutes for proper shot placement.
3. Animals do amazing things, survival wise when shot... in other words, their extended survival defies logic.
4. While the smaller calibers CAN do the job, they may not be the best choice for new/less experienced hunters (discipline and shot placement issues).

 

[reynolds357]

603, a strike dead on shoulder blade is the fault of the bullet, not the shooter. The fact that Nosler toughened up the bullet is prima facia evidence that they had a problem in their orig. design. 200 deer? Whats the bag limit where you hunt? Must have an agricultural permit.

 

[603Country]

Reynolds, where I grew up, the limit per season was either 5 or 6. I don't remember. I never did less than the limit. But from 1980 to 1990, I was an oil trader that entertained customers on a hunting ranch. As an employee, I wasn't allowed to shoot bucks (unless they were obvious culls), but we had to take over 400 does per year. Most of the guys wouldn't shoot the does, and few of the guests would, so every year, late in the season, the ranch manager would tell me to shoot every doe I saw. So I'd get a good shooting customer or two and we'd get serious about doe shooting. I can only guess at how many does I shot (with the old style Ballistic Tip, which I'm pretty sure was in production at the time). I shot them in the lungs, the neck, and occasionally in the head. Never tried to hit them in the shoulder bone, on purpose. Most days I shot 10 or 12 does, and the customers shot close to that each. It takes a lot of time to shoot em, load em, take em (5 to 8 at a time) to the ranch and the skinners, turn around and go back and do it again and again and again. I think you can understand why I preferred the 270 to the 220. Tracking was time wasted and was to be avoided.

And all that time, I never shot a buck, but I sure saw some good ones. The best was a 14 point that was chasing a doe around. I watched them for a while through the scope and finally shot the doe. Seems all wrong doesn't it, but I'd get fired for shooting a buck and they were paying me WAY too much to risk getting fired.

I sure miss that job. Had my own jeep, my own company issued bird dog, and all the shotgun shells I could shoot (dove and quail). Rifle and pistol ammo was on my nickel, which is what got me into reloading. I'm retired now, but I'd go back to work to get that job again. Unfortunately, we got bought by a big company and the fun came to an end. The big company eventually changed its name to Enron, and you may know how that all worked out.

 

[buck460XVR]

I think the biggest difference between the 80s and now is that back then, blood trailing a deer was considered normal and a basic skill of most deer hunters. Even when a well shot deer went 80-100 yards before expiring, folks didn't think it was a big deal. Nowadays, if a shot does not result in an instant bang-flop-DRT, the bullet must not have performed and many hunters don't know the first thing about proper blood trailing techniques. It's gotten so that many folks think they musta missed if a deer doesn't go down right away.

 

[reynolds357]

Tracking deer? I thought that was what dogs were for.

 

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by reynolds357:

Tracking deer? I thought that was what dogs were for.

Dogs trail deer, hunters track them.

Had a Drahthaarr years ago that was great at blood trailing wounded deer. Legal here as long as the dog is on a leash and you do not have a firearm with you. Was a great aid for bow shot deer in the big swamps around here. Used him more for other folks than myself. Funny thing was he completely ignored deer and their scent when bird hunting, but put him on a leash and show him some blood and the hound in him came out.

 

[reynolds357]

Tracking dogs are legal here as well. Trailing or running, is if the animal is still alive. That is illegal here. Tracking a dead deer here with a dog is perfectly fine on or off leash.

 

[Unlicensed Dremel]

I think the rule our state has is pretty reasonable -.224 must be 55 grain or heavier. Rules out varmint loads and stuff like .22 hornet. That's about right.

I mean, .22 hornet in reality, would be just fine and dandy for a well-placed neck (spine) shot, but it starts to get sketchy on quartering shots, as would any lightly constructed .224 varmint bullet 50 gr or less.

A few years ago, Savage made a heavy varminter rifle (LRPV?), which had the following twist choices among various sub-models:

1. .22-250: 12 OR 9
2. .223 rem: 9 OR 7

If they had made the 9 twist, .22-250 in a lightweight sporter rifle, I'd have jumped on it like a hobo on a ham sandwich - that's the *perfect* whitetail rifle!

 

[Bennyfatsack]

Here in New South Wales Australia no restriction on calibre, our neighbours to the south in Victoria have a minimum calibre rifle of a .270 for deer,I don't know why here in nsw myself personally have taken easily upto 80 fallow deer with a ruger mkII .223, and if that at best 5 may have been no clean kills. Using factory ammonia running a 55gr sierra ballistic tip, no to mention countless wild goats and a handful of wild pigs, .223 would easily be Australia's most prominent, popular, tried and tested calibre.

 

[Panfisher]

Wow, you mean all those 55 grainer HP, Varmageddons, Ballistic Tips, V-max, SXSP etc. aren't varmit bullets? I like the regs to be more open say "expanding bullet & centerfire", let the hunter pick what fits his conditions and skills.

 

[JD0x0]

If they had made the 9 twist, .22-250 in a lightweight sporter rifle, I'd have jumped on it like a hobo on a ham sandwich - that's the *perfect* whitetail rifle!

Ruger American in 22-250 seems like it could fit the bill. It doesn't have 1:9 twist it has 1:10, which is likely comparable to a 1:9 twist in .223 if you're using full powered loads in the .22-250, since velocity is a bit higher with the .22-250. It should be able to just stabilize the 62 grain TSX boat tail, and the 55 grain TSX should stabilize no problem.

 

[Art Eatman]

From what I've read about .224 "deer bullets", a 1:10 twist should work just fine. I get sub-MOA with some round-nose 70-grain bullets in my 1:10 .223.

 

[MJFlores]

I'm old fashioned and like big bullets and big holes, and just cant imagine hunting deer or other medium game with anything smaller than 30 cal. This is my opinion only. However...I worked up a load in my AR using 60 grain Sierra Game Kings over H322 and WOW do they put the hurt on my pallet and log back stop. I have no doubt that slipping one of those into the shoulder / vitals of a deer would end in dramatic fashion. But, I doubt I'll ever try it because my '06 is always there and ready to go. Now, when my young son is ready to take his first deer...I believe that AR loaded with 60 grainers may just accompany us.

 

[Grunt96]

A 223 can kill deer just fine, but I don't personally recommend that to the average Joe. Reason being you have to be responsible enough to take ideal shots at ideal ranges. Average hunter Joe may not have that discipline, and then you end up with a wounded deer where as a 308 or 30-06 would have done the job on a marginally placed shot. Heck, I'm really good shooting rifles long range. Spray paint cans and softballs at 500 yards all day with my 308. But, I have made a marginally placed shot only one time due do using a cheap scope that I just couldn't get a clear view through due to low light. The 308 did the job where as a 223 would have resulted in tracking or a lost deer, no doubt about it. In general I think this is why many seasoned hunters will discourage new hunters from a 223. Sometimes, even though very rarely with proper gear shots may not be perfect. Deer could spook right when you drop the hammer or anything, and that perfect shot turns out to be not so perfect. There is a level of responsibility that comes with hunting, a respect for the animal and an obligation to ensure a fast clean kill. So no, I don't think the average Joe should use anything below a 243/6 mm.

 

[BIG P]

Barnes x 55gr. has put many many deer in the freezer at my house,hogs too for what its worth. 223 & 22250. worked pretty good then,Bet it still will.