2 punks hassling you near your property

[MLeake]

PK...

... I agree more with your revamped answer.

I'm not advocating going violent early, or initiating. If you can back away while not behaving in a way that makes them think they have you cowed, great. Not shooting is preferable.

Dealing with bullies is kind of like dealing with aggressive dogs. If you let them think they're in charge, they can become much more dangerous. Controlled tactical retreat vs rout, if you will, would be fine.

The one concern I have with the cell phone would be whether there would be time to actually use it, vs whether it would just be a distraction.

Given the yardwork scenario, it's entirely feasible they could get fairly close before you ever knew it - assuming your mower is as loud as mine, for instance. Phones are great, and I always have one, but with two aggressive guys at close range, tying one hand up with reaching for that pocket might be a bad move.

You're right to ask what sort of tough/bad are these guys supposed to be? If they play mailbox baseball, etc, that's different than if they routinely beat down the neighborhood teenagers, which is different from they've done time for agg assault.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Yep.... and you've identified the other major problem with these scenarios.... Your assumptions, versus mine, versus the OP. That, coupled with God-Only-Knows how many variables that I might be ignoring but you are not or vice-versa and who knows what mixture thereof.... pretty much makes these things worthless.

Your yard work put you on a mower... mine was racking leaves....


Anyway, the worst of it is that the OP ties our hands. "Your phone is inside", no, it's not. I carry a gun, I can sure as hell carry a phone. "Keep approaching", no, they don't. I would exit at the FIRST instance of trouble not wait for more.

Regardless, the "verbally harassing you, poking fun at you and your family," part of the whole thing is really totally irrelevant. Anyone who can't deal with "poking fun" and "verbal harassment" without wondering about lethal force should decidedly not be carrying a gun. Maybe these guys pose a lethal threat, maybe not, but the name calling is completely beside the point.

 

[MLeake]

Now you've gone and done it, PK...

... we are back in total agreement.

 

[pax]

Why would I be prepared enough to carry my gun but not my cell?

Anyway, the worst of it is that the OP ties our hands. "Your phone is inside", no, it's not. I carry a gun, I can sure as hell carry a phone.

...don't get in this scenario. Have your phone and use it ...

First off, NEVER be without your cell phone.

Wow. I'm shocked at all the people in this forum who NEVER have a battery die, NEVER misplace the cell phone for a little while, NEVER break a cell phone, NEVER set the phone on the charger while working around the house, NEVER decide that they don't want their phone to get banged around while they're doing yard work so leave it inside ...

I bet these are the same people who NEVER enter "condition white" and ALWAYS see everything happening around them.

</sarcasm>

Guys, seriously: if you don't want to think the scenario through as given, then don't. If the scenario is too damn stupid or silly for words, the moderators will be along shortly to close it anyway (because we don't do stupid-sillies here).

But don't kid yourselves into thinking that you could NEVER get into a dicey situation without your cell phone, or that you will NEVER make any other sort of pre-situation mistake that could limit your options if something bad happens. That's just -- well, denial ain't just a river in Egypt, that's all I'm saying.

pax

 

[Buzzcook]

They don't like how you called the police one night when you saw them doing lawnjobs nextdoor

So they've already been through the system at least once. I would just remind them of that and have them consider the consequences of going through the system again.

Retreat and call the cops.

 

[gatopardo]

I'm afraid

This is only the beginning, I'm sorry to say.
I'm familiar with this scenario. They'll move to vandalizing and theft, I'm pretty sure drugs are involved, so they won't stop by themselves.

Advise:
-If you can afford it, get a PC, install webcamxp ( which records the movement around the house and upload the pics to a webserver for later review).

-Get yourself three or more of those $20.oo webcams and install the on the window, if the cameras have a red light the bad guys will know "they are on TV" the damage cannot be avoided, but you'll know who and when it was done.

-Get yourself a scary and loud dog, to keep the off your six as much as you can.

-Motion activated light are big help on this, you'll know when there is activity on your front and back yard, since the glow can be apreciated fron the inside most times.

-Have a plan of action, don't be afraid to discuss it with the children, set a fort where to fall back in the event of an emergency, behind your bed is a good place, when the count of heads is complete you can shoot the lifes off anything approaching at this point.

- make a police report as often as this happens, don't be afraid to "bother" the police, you'll have a record of harassment, and it'll help if the inevitable happens.

-By all means don't go after them, if you go to prison, you'll leave your loved ones, unprotected.

-By all means keep control of the situation, they'll try to lure you into their manipulation zone, where you are vulnerable, discover their game and call it. You don't have anything to prove to those trash bins at all.

_If you have to bake cookies and brownies for the leos to hang around your neighborhood , by all means do it.

- If you carry, never, never let them know, you'll blow your chance for a surprise, in fact you'll end up with a surprise on your side, remember they are not playing by the rules. By the way if they know you CC, they'll call the police and you're in trouble, it'll be easy for them to be credible since after all you carry your gun with you always.

Mind you this are preventive measures. This type of trash are basically lazy and if you persist and show backbone they'll move to something else eventually.

They have a basic disadvantage over you, they are not very intelligent they are just brash.

 

[pax]

Deleted one response, with a reminder: Feel free to PM any moderator, at any time, if you have concerns about how the forum is being run. (Not snarky, just an invitation.) Please don't sidetrack threads with such criticisms; it's a disservice to the thread starter.

pax

 

[AcridSaint]

Hi Pax - I don't think my question/reply was out of line. I have a count that I go through each and every time I leave the house (yes, I actually count how many of my must-carry items are on me) and a working phone is part of that count.

I carry a gun, a knife and a phone as part of that list. Many (read most) places I visit in NC do not allow a gun, some do not allow a knife but nearly all allow a phone. It should be part of our "arsenal", so imo, the first lesson to take from this is don't leave phone in the house. This becomes even more important if you are someplace where you feel you might need a gun.

Also, my answer did cover the "what if" that the OP gave, do not initiate conflict and do not even consider a deadly force option unless you legitimately feel that your life is threatened.

So, in order, I would have my phone, I would not aggress and I would use lethal force, provided the situation actually required it.

For what it's worth, I'm with the pizzakilla camp in that I read it to mean that they were not on his property. If they trespassed that I would also opt for "leave my property or I will call the police" and then I would retrieve my phone. If it's inside you can still get to it without losing sight of your would-be attackers and if they close on you then you escalate appropriately.

 

[.40cal]

Call the police if they actually come on your property . . . uninvited. This is what we pay taxes for folks. If you call them, they will come.

It's almost like there are some people looking for a reason to empty a magazine. I'm not saying to be ill-prepared. Always be ready to defend your self. Only if you feel threatened on your property after exhausting all other avenues should you take further action involving the possible use of deadly force. I mean, come on, I dont know about any of you but deep down I dont really want to shoot some one. Especially a young stupid kid that we all were at one time or another.

These threads about dogs and pits and angry punks and weedeaters really crack me up.

 

[Dwight55]

.40 cal has the idea, . . . just kinda put one hand in the air as if you were a teacher calling for silence, . . . and announce "Hey, guys, . . . you're gonna have to excuse me for a while, . . . I've got to go call the police".

Then go do it.

And stay inside your house until the cops arrive.

The message isn't a taunt, . . . threat, . . . or escalation. It states unequivcally that you do not want trouble, . . . and will get a resolution to it.

May God bless,
Dwight

 

[Nnobby45]

Hey, I watch cops. Showing police pictures on a camcorder really does help to establish who the aggressors are and who's telling it like it is.

And their reactions to being recorded will likely make it clear that they're being recorded with their full knowledge.

Before hand, I'd look into restraining order options which, I believe, prohibit vebal assaults from off your property.

Not for random incidents, but might be useful for continuous problem neighbors and wouldn't be without risk of some sort of retaliation. But doing anything at all to combat the problem would have risks.

Don't think I'd leave my yard to confront them and become a willing combatant in the eyes of the legal community should things escalate.

 

[Nnobby45]

If they forced a situation where I felt it necessary to draw - ...............


These two would set themselves up for a very bad day if they actually came on property and attempted an assault.

Some years back (Aug 1, 1995) there was an incident shown over and over again on various news networks. A neighborhood bully came on to a man's property in a very aggressive manner as the homeowner stood his ground.

The security camera caught it all. It's GRAPHIC, but if you carry a gun--watch it.


The property owner said NO, NO, NO. The bully saw the gun and said, "I don't give a S#@*&" and came up onto the porch and turned toward the home owner. That dialogue can't be heard very well on either video, but could on the original news versions.

The lower link is better quality. The first one is from the TFL in 2005. Or Google up--- Man Shoots Bully on His Porch; and you'll get lots of videos.

Old stuff, but considering the topic of this thread, it might be a good idea to revisit the incident.



http://www.filecabi.net/video/neighborhoodbullyshot.html

http://www.dirtybutton.com/videos/804-neighborhood-bully-shot/


As he reaches the porch and turns toward the homeowner there's four quick shots, and the bully was a bully no more, but rather writhing on the porch screaming in agony. Not a pleasant thing to watch.

The homeowner, no doubt in a highly aroused state, didn't help his case by taunting him.

Death was the result for the bully (with a neighborhood reputation to that effect) and I'm not sure if the home owner is out of prison yet.

I can't read minds, but I'll bet he-- on many a night in his prison cell, wished he'd called the police.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I've had almost this very thing done to me. Differences were I had my cell on me and the wife was home as usual. (Doesn't drive) In my case I approached the punks and told them to get the H off my property or I'd call the police. Was told to F off. I immediately got out my cell and called my brother, but of course the punks didn't know that, and immediately moved off in a different direction hurling insults all the while. I had a pleasant conversation with my brother and then continued with my work. They didn't bother me again, they found out I had no reservations about protecting my property and wasn't afraid of them, and I didn't really have to bother the cops. The whole lot of losers that were living there were gone within 6 months.

Many other things have happened here along those lines, but this was what most matched the OP's situation.

 

[Sherlock]

In '96 I had a kid come visit the church I was youth pastor in FL. He came back the next week and started talking smack. Surprisingly I told him my responsibility was the safety of these young men and women and if he was going to be an issue I would help him with his issue. He never came back.

Of course I was younger and in better shape. Might not be what people think of a Christian response but I thought of them as my kids.

EDIT - Today I'd probably OC while I mowed the lawn . . .

 

[Cellfone]

Go back inside the house and call the police. I'm only saying this because from what you described, it sounds as if these punks are retaliating for the first call to the police. These types of incidents need to be documented. You could easily establish a good witness intimidation case. Good luck.

 

[Slopemeno]

I think Dwight nailed it. No histronics. No emotion. Positive action.

 

[Bigfatts]

Tell them to leave, do not ask. I've noticed that sometimes body language is all you need. Square your shoulders, stand up straight and let them know they won't get to you. Make direct eye contact and hold it. I've used this before, but at 6'2" and 250 I can be intimidating when I want to. If they come onto your property tell them to leave or you will call the Police. If you feel the need to, go inside and do it, *if* you think you can do so safely, just don't turn your back. The next warning is a low-ready stance.

I know what you mean about not having your cell in your pocket while doing yard work. In FL I get pretty sweaty out there in the sun, sometimes it soaks right through my pocket. I don't want my $600 Palm getting all sweaty. I usually won't have it in my pocket but always near at hand. I would not, however, call the PD in front of these people, that would mean taking your eyes off of a possibly active threat. And we all know how fast things can happen...

 

[Lost Sheep]

Similar Situation? Taunting tresspasser advances-or just taunt and/or threaten?

Similar Situation? Taunting tresspasser advances-or just taunt and/or threaten?

I was curious about the August 1 1995 shooting that Nnobby45 mentioned. After a LOT of clicking, I found this article from Cincinnati Magazine. Scroll down to page 90.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HR...&resnum=2&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

or if the link does not work paste this into your browser
books.google.com/books?id=HR8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=Charles+Cole+and+Charles+%22Kevin%22+Blankenship&source=bl&ots=u-lA2f6J3g&sig=LuKnVAdjxCDPoF204OJ4uSMwGP4&hl=en&ei=7eKnTP_jNor4swOZkcTmDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

There is also a lesson to be learned about the ignorance of reporters (and, by extension, the general public and potential jury pool), as the writer describes a Cole's gun as a blowback operated, fully automatic firearm. Makes me suspect Yellow Journalism. Take with a grain of salt.

What I do believe from the article is that the shooter, Charles Cole was 5' 9" and 120 lbs and at least 40 years old, probably more. The Shooting victim, Charles "Kevin" Blankenship was 24 years, 175 lbs and also 5' 9" and worked out a lot.

Street posturing and arguing beforehand escalated. The two men had not met before. Kevin exclaimed, "F--- you and your gun. I've got something that will take care of all of you." Then advanced on Charlie, coming up the steps of Charlie's porch. Three steps, halfway up the stairs, saying "Use it, Bro, use it.", dropping his hands from their previously upraised position and taking a fourth step. I will guess less than 10 feet separate you (judging from the pictures).

What tactics would you employ at this point?

Trespasser, 50 lbs of muscle heavier and 20 years younger, advancing on you, unafraid of your drawn and ready gun.

Four shots, tresspasser less than a minute of life remaining. Then Charlie makes HIS error. He yells at the dying man. Got 18 to life.

This case demonstrate that "tactics" are not limited to the confrontation. Charles Cole found that he made tactical errors with regard to his decisions to call the police (or not call), apparantly not get proper training, practice and maintain proper mind-set.

He also apparently made a serious tactical error in his choice of lawyer (Attorney Kenneth L. Lawson's bio in a Cincinnatti Enquirer story http://www.enquirer.com/editions/1998/03/12/loc_lawson12.htm)

or if the link does not work paste this into your browser
enquirer.com/editions/1998/03/12/loc_lawson12.htm

who has lost his license to practice ( http://www.justice.gov/usao/ohs/Press/04-08-09.pdf ) and http://www.enquirer.com/editions/1998/03/12/loc_lawson12.html

or if the links do not work paste these into your browser
justice.gov/usao/ohs/Press/04-08-09.pdf
and
enquirer.com/editions/1998/03/12/loc_lawson12.html

Lost Sheep

 

[TheGoldenState]

Nnobby45.

I can't read minds, but I'll bet he-- on many a night in his prison cell, wished he'd called the police.

Wow, pretty graphic, i have a few questions. (no preconceived notions just serious questions). I know you're not an attorney (right?) and what if's can be done until the sky falls but here goes,


-Do you think the outcome for the homeowner would have been different WITHOUT the video? His word against a dead man's word?
-What if he had waited for the guy to get closer, say arms reach? would it have mattered?
-What if everything stayed the same (video, distance, etc.) BUT without the taunting and "do you want more, i killed ya" post shooting?
-Had he tried to help the guy -roll to side/chest pumps and call 911 immediately (as in he didnt want him dead just protecting his life that he felt was in immediate danger) would that have helped his case?


Personally, in THAT situation, I would have out the gun away, and fought with him-right or wrong.

 

[Wildalaska]

Walking away does not show weakness.

Wisdom from the Sauce/Cheese consumer. I add running to that scenario.

The problem with these scenarios is that there's always 100 ways to avoid them before you ever get to the scenario condition.

And again, Pizzaman calls it.


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