Zastava 999

[RX-79G]

"Pedigree". What is the pedigree of a pistol that was designed in Switzerland, finalized and produced by an old German gun company, but is then suddenly produced in a new US plant with completely new methods and nearly half the parts re-designed by Americans - many of which are made by subcontractors.

Pedigree is the problem. Just as Taurus continues to sell evenly grossly unsafe and haphazardly constructed pistols based on the a reputation earned from correctly using S&W and Beretta production lines, Sig USA and their products have little to do with the firearms that passed so many military trials in the '70s and '80s.

On a good day, they are excellent clones of a German product. On bad days they are Caspian 1911s that don't work, 320s that peen themselves in to unreliability and 938s that aren't reliable enough for self defense.

In terms of Sig's reach, how many national militaries actually adopted a post a machined slide Sig for national service? 2? 3? Is it actually more than the CZ-99?

The USP line alone has been adopted more times to national service.

 

[volkstrm]

RX-79G. I don't know where you get that current us production sig's are not quality pistols? And as far as former sig employee Todd Green go's maybe he's just p/o at sig? I have two newer sig's frame's made in Germany & slide's in the us. I have a 226(40s&w/357sig) & a 220 combat(45acp) got them new around 2004-2006. They have been 100% for me & are top of line IMO.

 

[RX-79G]

I watched over a period of 15 years the Sigforum go from an enthusiast website to a place to bitch and reminisce. Forums frequented by high volume shooters also appear to treat Sig problems since the Cohen take-over as an open secret.

People to find out about:
Todd Green
"The Dentist" and his assembled ammunition and failure data.
Ron Cohen, who "transformed" first Kimber, then Sig.


TFL is fun, but a little provincial. There are many places out there where civilian, military and PD trainers post frequently about what they see in classes and what comes off the telex. The same places that the Gen 3 .40 Glock light problem came to light, the Gen 4 Glock issues, the M&P full size 9mm accuracy problems.

Everybody wants to treat reported problem trends as internet myth. Internet myth is as much as a myth. If Taurus, Sig, S&W and Kimber have the same problems as everyone else, then we'd hear just as much crap about HK, FN and Walther. Strangely, you hear almost nothing about certain brands. There were almost no reported problems with Sig before the mid-90s.

Believe whatever you want based on your two examples. I'm not saying Sigs have a 50% failure rate - just that the problems are far more widespread with modern Sigs than competing brands OR earlier eras.

And a whole bunch of people agree with me.

 

[LockedBreech]

I'm not sure if it's intended to be, but the tone of your posts is condescending. I am well aware of everyone you suggested I "find out about", I am well aware of the recent history of Sig, and SigForum is just a forum like any other forum, of which I regularly peruse about a half-dozen. Every internet forum combined is still a fairly small sample of the firearms market. I know a lot of shooters - perhaps literally dozens of shooters - with sizable collections who have never posted on a gun forum in their lives.

I do my research. I do my reading. Having seen the same information, I have come to a different conclusion. If you can't have the debate assuming I'm an intellectual equal who has done my due diligence, it's a pointless debate. If you want to provide evidence, making vague allusions about things I should look into and learn about is unhelpful.

A lot of people agree with me, too. Like the Secret Service. And the SEALs.

 

[RX-79G]

You realize I was responding to Volkstrum, right?

 

[LockedBreech]

That was unclear to me, I must have missed his post. My mistake as to that, tired eyes. I stand by most of my post. Forums aren't indicative of the entirety or even the majority of the firearms world, and a lot of very professional organizations still choose Sig. Internet forums turned a handful of reports of cracked Beretta 92 slides into a problem endemic to the 92 design. For all their great qualities (spirited debates, pretty pictures) forums can have an "echo-chamber" effect where isolated incidents get repeated over and over.

 

[RX-79G]

Sure, but people are still buying lots of 92s, and most people even understand that all that was isolated. They may also be aware of the different locking block generations, and the problems with Checkmate phosphated mags. Most people also now acknowledge that kaBooms happened, and what factors were at play. Or that Ruger P-85s were inaccurate and had a recall for decocker ADs. Or how CZs and Witness pistols break slide locks over time. And TFL has gone from being a place with people yelling "HATERS" to accepting the gross problems Taurus has been having and their poor handling of them.

5 or 10 years from now the Sig BS will be past, people will be discussing which models and serial number ranges to avoid on the used market and maybe they'll be able to bring out a new model without having to beta test them on the public.

I'm not sure why a bunch of guys in NH are given credit for designing and building guns with the expertise of SIG of Switzerland or Sauer of Germany.

Can I interest you in a first gen GSR?

 

[TunnelRat]

We've gone from talking about the Zastava to debating if SIG is still good.

Did SIG have problems in recent years? Yes. The ones I owned mainly had cosmetic problems such as incomplete finishes on the inside of slides and sights that were just tapped on without any effort to center. Mine all still functioned for thousands of rounds, though it was disappointing to call SIG and have them say it was acceptable. Others were not so lucky and had actual functional issues. But the firearms I have seen coming out of their newer facility seem to be improved and more or less equivalent to those in the 90s (I've owned SIGs from all years). To act like Exeter, NH is the problem also ignores that many great SIGs were either assembled or in the case of the P229 built by Exeter in the 90s. The new facility is a lot larger with numerous checkpoints on QC. Frankly I think they realized their reputation had taken a hit, a reputation built over decades, and they needed to do something in order to keep charging their current prices and prevent that reputation from being destroyed.

To bring up Todd Green as an example of why SIGs are bad and then to ignore that he currently carries a SIG is bizarre. Obviously at some point Todd Green decided to give them another shot, and from what I have read he is happy so far. I'd also like to point out that Todd Green's opinions, like any shooter worth his salt, are constantly evolving. He doesn't adopt one attitude and set it in stone. He allows the option to change that opinion if presented with newer evidence.

As to the Zastava. From what I have seen so far, reports of the latest import are favorable. Century is importing some great firearms these days and giving the market a lot of lower cost options. This is always a good thing. Those boys in VT are doing a good job.

 

[jmay]

Wow this thread took a crazy turn! Funny you bring up the CZ999 mag thing I just bought a CIA HG3193-N Zastava CZ40 10+1 40S&W 4.25" 40 S&W off Buds should ship soon

 

[jmay]

CZ999 Mags & Parts

On these CZ999 anyone have any real experiences with these things? I wonder about availability of simple parts like recoil springs and extractors and stuff.

 

[DA/SA Fan]

RX-79G wrote

This isn't a Witness or Tristar.

Hey now! Don't go dissing my Tristar. It eats anything and everything I feed it and can reliably spit out death whenever the trigger is pulled. No problem trusting my life to it. None at all.

 

[RX-79G]

Tristar makes a good product. It just isn't a product that has any history behind it. Which is fine - neither does the HK VP9. But right now it is a company that makes its money on consumers, not military or police contracts, and that lowers expectations.

 

[DT Guy]

So 'history' with the Iranian military is worth more than 'history' with hundreds of US police agencies and the Navy SEALS?

Rokay.....


Larry

 

[Uncle Ethan]

Tunnelrat- sorry I was unclear. The weapons I trust my life to become very dear to me. Most of my 1911's [other than my collection] are ones I found at shows or gun shops that were basket cases. After I rebuilt them to be 100% reliable with my Swenson loads I get real attached. My sigs have never needed any rework except occasionally installing a 18# hammer spring to safely lighten the trigger pull. After I carry the Zastava a year or so and burn a lot of ammo at the range I'll probably feel the same about it-BUT- It isn't a 1911 or a Sig. I feel about them same as I do my Model 57 S&W's.

 

[RX-79G]

DT Guy,

Are you saying when you buy a Sig, you're getting exactly what they send to the SEALs?

 

[jmay]

More talk about Zastava less talk about Sig please! You guys need a Sig vs. Zastava thread.

 

[Fishbed77]

Are you saying when you buy a Sig, you're getting exactly what they send to the SEALs?

If you get a Mk.25, then yes.

 

[RX-79G]

Exactly. The SEALs used to get stock German P226s. Now they get a special gun.

 

[TunnelRat]

Exactly. The SEALs used to get stock German P226s. Now they get a special gun.

I think Fishbed meant that you can buy the Mk 25 now from SIG, at least by SIG's marketing. My comment would be that were I SIG, I would inspect the Mk 25s sent to the SEALs infinitely more than the ones I released to the commercial market (if they are in fact the same gun). As for it being special, it really is just a P226 with phosphate coatings. The Mk 25 designation has been around for a while. I don't see how them using the Mk 25 is proof that the rest of their product line isn't up to par. Nor is the M11-A1 (which isn't used by the military at all as far as I know) actually much different than the P229, again with the exception of some coatings. I imagine any product that is shipped to a military is inspected more (at least more units inspected per batch) than those sent to civilians.

 

[jmay]

Dont know if Sig builds special firearms for elite groups of the U.S. Military but I do know that the Serbian elite units along with the Serbian police are issued CZ999 & thats what this thread is about right? Or did I get in the wrong thread