You Never Know What You Are Going to Find at a Gun Show

"Mike, Corrosive primers were mercuric."

Yes, I know they were. Mercury wasn't (generally) removed from commercial primers until the early part of the 1900s, although mercuric primers continued to be used in special circumstances for decades after.


"Around the nipple, the flats and angles were so badly eroded as to be nearly round."

No, I don't think it was the mercury, Bob. Mercury doesn't amalgamate with either iron or steel, meaning that it would have virtually no effect.

But what you're describing is a common, and well know, effect of the high flame temperature of early primers literally eroding away the steel, with the effect being magnified by the highly corrosive nature of the priming mixture itself.

The same effect was seen in early Lee rifles in British service with Metford rifling used with first generation cordite. Early cordite burned incredibly hot due to its high nitroglycerine content.

That problem was solved in stages -- adoption of the Enfield deep cut rifling (creating the Lee-Enfield series of rifles), reformulation of cordite to reduce the nitroglycerin content and, over time, better barrel steels.

Now, where I could see mercury from early primers causing a problem is with nickle plated guns. The mercury could get under the plating through flaws and attack the copper bonding layer that was commonly used in old plating techniques.

Given that mercury will amalgamate with copper, it could eventually cause the plating to lose adhesion.
 
There is a great youtube video by MidwayUSA on this #3 revolver. Also shows reloading for it.

I was not able to view the video, but the description is he is loading ammo for the 44 S&W American Model. That is not the same cartridge, nor the same revolver. Number Three was just the size of the frame, there were five distinctly different S&W revolvers built on the #3 size frame. The five were the American Model, the Russian Model, the Schofield, the New Model Number Three (that's what this thread is about), and the 44 Double Action.

The American model fired the 44 S&W cartridge which employed a heeled bullet. The bullet was the same diameter as the outside of the case, and the 'heel' of the bullet was a smaller diameter and inserted into the inside of the case. This cartridge cannot be loaded with conventional dies, special dies are needed to crimp the case onto the bullet. That is probably why Potterfield did a special video about loading it.

My New Model Number Three is chambered for 44 Russian. Basically a shorter version of the 44 Special. The bullet slips inside the case, just like any other modern cartridge, and I reload it with conventional reloading dies.

Here is a photo of my New Model #3 with some original 44 Russian cartridges.

New%20Model%20Number%20Three%20Blue%2031022%2012%20with%20Ammo_zps3mpsjv6c.jpg





The four cartridges in this photo, left to right, are 44 S&W American, 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum. If you look very closely at the 44 American cartridge, you will see the bullet is the same outside diameter as the cartridge case, just like modern 22 Long Rifle ammunition. The basic difference between 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum, other than the power of course, is each one has a slightly longer case. They all share all the other major dimensions. I use a standard RCBS 44 Magnum/44 Special die set to load 44 Russian, I have ground down the seating/crimp die to allow for the shorter case of the 44 Russian round.

44AM44R44SP44MAG.jpg
 
So the new model No. 3 frame was the same size as the original No. 3 frame?

I've never seen that definitively stated anywhere.
 
"I’m certain that Takata &Co is the same company making the recalled airbags today."

No. Airbag Takata was founded in 1933.
 

Bob Wright

New member
As to reloading .44 Russian ammunition, about forty years ago or so, I had some .44 Russian brass, and decided to load it up for my then-new Charter Alms Bulldog. My idea was for easier extraction.

I had an old Lyman 310 loading outfit for .44 Magnum, though I had long since gone to a bench mounted press. I found an adapter for the small Lyman dies, to fit them into my RCBS press, and adjusted the dies to seat and crimp the short cases.

The .44 Russian worked very well in the little Charter .44!

Bob Wright
 
So the new model No. 3 frame was the same size as the original No. 3 frame?

Howdy Again

This photo probably answers your question fairly well.

Top to bottom, New Model Number Three made in 1882, Schofield 1st Model made in 1875, and Russian 2nd Model, also made in 1875.

threenumberthrees_zpse6a96b66.jpg





Early in the development of the #3 Top Breaks S&W settled on a cylinder nominally 1 7/16" long with the American model (sorry, I don't have one to show you. Yet). The 1 7/16" long cylinder was just about right for the 44 S&W American cartridge and the later 44 Russian cartridge. This is also the reason S&W had to develop the 45 Schofield cartridge for the Schofield model, a 1 7/16" long cylinder was too short to accommodate the 45 Colt cartridge chambered by the Colt Single Action Army. Smith and Wesson's bread and butter in the early 1870s was the Russian model, all their #3 tooling was set up for 1 7/16" long cylinders. When they approached the Army about a contract, the Army insisted on 45 caliber, but S&W was not about to change all their tooling to make a longer cylinder for an Army contract that might or might not pan out. So the Army told S&W they would accept a shorter 45 caliber cartridge. Whether or not this actually created supply problems is debatable, but it was the correct decision for S&W. S&W eventually produced around 150,000 Russian models, only about 9,000 Schofields. (working off the top of my head here) But if one is working with a large diameter cylinder 1 7/16" long, the major features of the frame are going to be about the same size.

Sure there are plenty of stylistic differences between the frames of the various #3 Top Breaks, things like the big hump on the grip of the Russian model, the slight hump on the NM#3, and the smooth curved grip of the Schofield. The grip of the American model was also curved, much like the Schofield, but it was a bit more straight up and down. The other thing to notice about the #3 design is how the extractor housing under the barrel got shorter and shorter over time, as S&W kept improving and shortening the extractor mechanism. The extractor housing of the American model was the longest of all.

Later S&W did chamber the New Model Number Three and the 44 Double Action for some longer cartridges, such as 44-40 and 38-40, and a 1 9/16" long cylinder was needed for these calibers. The frames of these guns were 'stretched' that extra 1/8" to properly accommodate those calibers. But that extra 1/8" is pretty much the only difference in frame size. Sorry, I don't have any #3s with the longer cylinders, all of mine are chambered for 44 Russian with the exception of the Schofield. But I can usually spot one with the longer cylinder when I see one. I usually go to auctions and gunshops with a tape measure in my pocket.





In the next photo, top to bottom, are the New Model Number Three, Russian, and a 44 Double Action chambered for 44 Russian with a 1 7/16" cylinder. The shape of the double action grip frame is quite similar to the NM#3 grip frame. Not exactly the same, but very similar. Of course, being double action, the lockwork is radically different. Notice the ejector housing of this Double Action is slightly longer than the NM#3, but I have another 44 Double Action with a short ejector housing the same length as the one on this NM#3. In fact, I believe the barrels of the 44 Double Action and the NM#3 were interchangeable. Not 100% sure of that, but I'm pretty sure. Dig the funky trigger and trigger guard shapes. Notice too all the extra slots cut into the Double Action cylinder. More about that in a minute.

ModelThrees02.jpg





So perhaps a grain of salt should be taken when I say all Number Three Top Breaks were the same size. There were basic, obvious differences, but they were all 'pretty much' the same size.




While I'm at it, here are, top to bottom, the lockworks of the Russian, Schofield, New Model Number Three, and 44 Double Action.

Sorry it is a little bit out of focus, but in this photo the hammer is all the way down on the Russian model. You can see the firing pin poking through the frame at the front. (I removed the cylinder for this photo) The half cock notch (it's not really half way), is just behind the trigger sear. The full cock notch is further back. The slanty piece is the hand. I think proper S&W speak calls it a pawl. The curved piece pinned to the frame is the trigger spring. Notice the slot at the top of the hammer. This captures a tab on the barrel latch. In order to break the gun open, the hammer had to go back to the 'half cock' position. This freed the tab on the latch to be lifted, and the bolt popped down when the hammer was in the 'half cock' or loading position, allowing the cylinder to spin freely.

hammerdown.jpg





Here is the Schofield lockwork. The hammer is all the way forward, the firing pin is protruding through the frame, and the bolt (cylinder stop) is popped up in the frame. Very similar to the Russian lockwork, except because the barrel latch was frame mounted, there was no slot on the hammer to trap the latch. Instead, the hammer had to be brought back to the half cock position for the flat at the top of the hammer to allow the latch to be pulled back far enough to open the gun. Bringing the hammer back to half cock also withdrew the bolt into the frame so the cylinder could spin freely.

hammerdown_zps69d82710.jpg





The New Model Number Three was the piece de resistance of S&W Top Break design. The mechanism is almost the same as the Russian or Schofield models, excerpt a new wrinkle was added. The NM#3 featured a rebounding hammer. Once the hammer fell, the springs would automatically pop it back slightly. When the trigger was released, the sear would then pop into a very small notch. That is the position the hammer is in now. The firing pin has been pulled back into the frame, and the sear is resting in the tiny, I'll call it a 'safety notch'. The bolt is still in the popped up position, keeping the cylinder locked, the slot at the top of the hammer is still trapping the barrel latch. In order to break the gun open, the hammer still has to be brought back to the half cock position, withdrawing the bolt into the frame and allowing the barrel latch to be lifted. Clearly, the rebounding hammer feature was added as a safety feature, but because that 'safety notch' is so tiny, and the sear is so thin, I would never trust it to prevent an accidental discharge if the hammer happened to receive a blow with a live round under the hammer. I suspect the sear would break and the gun would discharge. Interestingly enough, the target model New Model Number Threes did not have the rebounding hammer.

hammeratrest.jpg





Finally, here is the 44 Double Action lockwork. The claw shaped piece is the front sear. It rotates the hammer back when the trigger is pulled. There is a separate sear for single action fire. The cylinder locking system is bizarre. There is a conventional bolt that pops up and locks the cylinder when the hammer is cocked, or when the trigger is pulled double action. There is a knob on the front of the trigger that pops up when the trigger is released. This knob engages the front row of locking slots you can see on the cylinder in the earlier photo. The vertical slots on the cylinder are clearance cuts so the knob on the front of the trigger will not interfere with the cylinder if the gun is closed without a chamber lined up with the bore. The 38 Double Action Top Breaks originally had the same system, but they were later changed to a simpler one bolt system. The 44 Double Action never received that update.

hammerdown_zpsc61af2d1.jpg
 
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Jim Watson

New member
Back to #15, I think Bob is operating under a misapprehension as to primers and caps.
Metallic mercury, which fulminate reduces to when fired, is not corrosive to steel. Mercury is commonly stored in iron flasks, 70 pounds as I recall. It is damaging to brass, but the old timers seem to have gotten away with it in BPCRs because the black powder fouling diluted and occluded it so they could reload for their buffalo and Creedmoor guns.
In fact, there was a generation of noncorrosive primers that were still mercuric. Great deal for the ammo companies, it preserved the gun barrels but ruined the brass so you had to buy new.

The problem Bob describes is because fulminate of mercury was not long used as the sole priming compound, it soon got additives like potassium chlorate and antimony sulfide to desensitize it somewhat and add to the flash.
So most of the old time primers and caps were mercuric AND corrosive.
So you might not clean off the little bit of soot blowing out between nipple and cap even though you mopped the barrel.
 
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