Yet another school shooting

[Aguila Blanca]

Nor can it be solved solely by the psychiatric community, or by politicians, or by educators. We're still figuring out the why of school shootings.

We'll never figure out the "why" of school shootings, because each one is different. Take just three -- compare two famous/infamous/notorious school shootings and compare them to this one. Columbine, Sandy Hook, and now this one.

Is there a rock solid common denominator? I submit that there isn't. The Sandy Hook shooter didn't even attend the school he shot up. Therefore we can't expect any one-size-fits-all "solution" to solve anything.

The one thing that's abundantly clear is that making guns illegal in schools has been an abject failure as a "solution."

Mental health professionals? My daughter was under the care of a psychiatrist and a psychologist. They cared her right through (or into) five suicide attempts (after the one that got her started on "therapy"). She has since realized what I knew all along -- the only person who can cure her of depression is herself.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

It's not just this one single incident. It's all of them. They were all mentally unstable. A gun in the school won't fix that.

I guess any time somebody acts outside of the norm of society that they may be deemed as mentally unstable, but ironically the mentally unstable people who act with the norms of society are overlooked. With that said, it isn't that a gun in school will fix mental instability, no more than cops will fix crimes. The problem exists well beyond the level of the actual incident, yet it is at the level of the actual incident where folks need the most defensive help.

This issue hits close to home for me now. Last week there was a shooting in the cafeteria of the high school in my home town, in the district in which I teach, the school from which I graduated and the same school my son will be attending in two years. This particular incident was mitigated to one injured student because an alert PE teacher tackled the shooter. Would the damage have been even less if she chose to return fire instead? Again: NO!

While probably the most common non-LEO method for stopping or attempting to stop such shooting is physical confrontation by students or faculty against the shooter, it is still a fairly uncommon tactic in the scope of all the shootings that occur in schools. By and large, people fear the shooter and attempt to flee, perceiving that they have no defense against a firearm. A better defense would be that of another firearm.

Personally, I am a huge proponent of people making do with the options that they have before them and to NOT believe that being unarmed means being defenseless, but I would much rather prefer to not be unarmed if dealing with an active shooter.

While the mental health in schools act seems like a really good idea, I would like to point out that the vast majority of such shooters are NOT students with undiagnosed mental health issues that had gone untreated. I would be willing to bet that in this case, the teen in question has known issues, has seen doctor(s), and was likely supposed to have been on medication. Maybe he was undiagnosed, but that would make him more of the exception than the rule. We can't keep coming up with laws and government programs to cover every unique individual issue that materializes.

 

[OldMarksman]

It's not just this one single incident. It's all of them.

Tthe issue is trying to use one single incident to evaluate potential mitigation strategies.

They were all mentally unstable.

Alrighty then!

A gun in the school won't fix that.

Of course not, but preventing those responsible for the protection innocent person from having the lawful means to do so is the issue--not how many of the students might fall onto or near one end or the other of the distributions for any of several dozen dfferent psychological testing measurements.

Violent incidents will occur. The question is how to deal with them when they do.

Naive? You're assertion that mental services would not be beneficial is absolutely moronic. How would those services hurt?

I have asserted no such thing, but since you have raised the issue, there are numerous ways in which at the very predictable misuse of such programs can hurt.

What I said was that the idea that a more attention on improved mental health would be an effective strategy for the mitigation of risk associated with violent attacks on unprotected innocents, which was the issue raised here, is naive.

What I should have said was incredibly naive.

 

[TrueBlue711]

...demand that he or she support the Mental Health in Schools Act

This whole post is definitely a touchy subject for those on both sides of the fence. I agree with most of the people on here and feel that conceal carry should be allowed in schools by teachers if they choose to do so and train to do so. There is no harm in it and if they conceal carry properly, nobody around them should even know they have it.
I also agree that our mental health program could use some help, but it will not stop these things from happening. I'm VERY cautious of mental health bills/laws being proposed when the word "gun" is in the same bill/law. That can be easily abused and 2A be damned. Lets say a teacher notices a student is off and sends him/her to mental health and they deem him/her dangerous. How far would the mental health bill go to "prevent violence" by said individual? Would they go to the parents' house and take THEIR guns away since this kid lives there? I'm not saying the Mental Health in Schools Act would do that. I don't know, I haven't even read it yet. Just saying I would read it very carefully and if there is any hint of gun confiscation buried in it, I would email my rep and say don't do it.
Random related thought that's kind of in the middle ground. What's everybody's thought if teachers could/would carry non-lethal like tasers? The good ones that shoot the prongs and are fairly accurate at a distance, not the crappy ones carried in women's purses in '90s movies.

 

[Pond James Pond]

I don't see why an Act designed to tackle mental health issues in schools before they get out of hand (assuming that is what it is designed to do and not a token gesture) and having armed members of staff have to mutually exclusive.

Mental health provisions may help reduce the incidence of such horrific events, but armed staff can be an added barrier against tragedy when those mental health provisions fail, which they inevitably will at some point.

If my child were in a school that was attacked and a member of staff put themselves in harm's way to protect my child, I would owe that person an immeasurable debt of gratitude.

One way of showing that gratitude is demanding they not be deprived of a means of bestowing that protection... i.e. be allowed to be armed (but also trained) if they so wish.

 

[Husqvarna]

1. Can mental health professionals 'fix/cure' folk who would go on a shooting rampage?

most definitly not fix it 100%

without linking and counting the statistic we can clearly see the Europe has less of these horrible events.

partly probably cultural, of course there is bullying and so on in Europe to but it is way bigger of an issue in America, to the point that it is a cliche part of movie/tv that jocks do this and that against nerds

We don't have as much guns as you do but we have them, even in "socialist" countries
but then on the otherh and us gun-pro folks we don't believe that access to guns raises crimes commited with them right?

the US lacks one major thing that most of Europe practises thou: UHC...
I put that forth as the deciding difference
a more comprehensive system catches more people early on
I know guys who have had their guns taken away from them, 2 cases of abuse problems (and both got them back after a couple of years and treatment) they are both glad it happened. and a couple of old geezers who started to show signs of dementia/alzheimers

unfortunalty the issue gets locked up in partisan posturing nad bickering. if people look at it logically and rationally it is the way to go, the rest of the free western world has done it you know, but then on the otherh and you still adhere to the silly notion of feet, inches, miles and all that nonsense, when there is a perfectly rational and logical system used by the rest of the world, but you wanna be obtuse.

 

[Husqvarna]

I work in a school btw

and support CCW(even if it isn't an option in my country)

for practical reason I can't see how I could carry thou. I work with mostly special needs ADHD and other kids on the spectrum, I am physical with them on a regular basis when they are in affect.

Everything got highlighted last year when a psycho attacked a school with a sword. we have lockdown procedures and whatnot. i dunno how others feel but were I in a school, that I know is atleast 10 minutes away from police help there is an obligation to hopefully do as that PE teacher did, I mean you can't lock yourself in a classroom and see kids running in the halls?

 

[armoredman]

I deal with SMI, (Significantly Mentally Ill), incarcerated persons daily. When it comes down to, "Is the person doing the crime mentally ill and have we done all we can to help them", my answer is simply, "I don't care." Mental health care should be available to those who need it, but we also don't need to stigmatize those who are not mentally ill and/or force "treatment" or drugs on those who don't need it. One meeting with a counselor led to me being rather dramatic when they suggested Ritalin, which I recall was a factor in almost all of the school shootings in the past decades, IIRC. Identify and assist those who are having issues, address and punish bullying, and arm the good people - but remind them they are NOT law enforcement. I would much rather there be an armed and trained teacher/janitor/Administrator on my son's campus than just gun-free-zone signs and good wishes.

 

[buck460XVR]

School shootings is an issue that cannot be solved by debate within pro-firearms community

I doubt very much if school shootings are an issue that can be completely solved by any means. We had a School shooting in my school back in 1969, which killed our principle. It is not a new phenomenon. What we can do by discussion within and outside the pro-firearms community is reduce the chances and reduce the risk to the children. Most schools now have procedures in place to restrict access to the buildings during the school day. Unfortunately, many schools(generally all high schools) become community buildings, open to the public after school hours, because of school athletics and other events. This is where I expect to see a increase in school shootings. Most of the time you have a high amount of folks concentrated heavily in a gymnasium or an auditorium as opposed to spread out in every classroom. These are the situations where a true terrorist is looking for, high numbers of soft targets in a small area, as opposed to a angry student who is looking for revenge against a few.

 

[Pond James Pond]

One meeting with a counselor led to me being rather dramatic when they suggested Ritalin

It is an impression outside the States, between the media, the entertainment industry etc that suggests that the medical profession have a tendency to be very "free" with prescription drugs.
What I mean is that the default treatment for any condition will involve a prescription slip when other approaches/therapies could suffice.

Would that be accurate in your experience?
I mean generally, not only psychiatric treatment (although that is the one that is featured most frequently in film and TV: "troubled protagonist struggles with demons of past traumas but finally triumphs.")

 

[44 AMP]

What I mean is that the default treatment for any condition will involve a prescription slip when other approaches/therapies could suffice.

Absolutely true, in my experience. They will put you on a pill, (or a combination of pills) to see what happens. If the problem is cured, great. If not, they will "adjust" your meds until the problem is cured, or they kill you in the process.

Pills are cheap (for the DOCTOR, they don't take up the Dr's time) and easy, they just write a prescription.

As to school shootings, I think ONE of the reasons they seem to happen so often these days (besides the effect of a 24/7 TV news cycle) is that we have been so "successful" in the last couple generations, at stamping out the lesser forms of violence. Kids who got bullied used to be able to fight it out.

Sometimes it was supervised, in a boxing match, more often it wasn't, but there was a fight. Someone won, someone lost, either way, the issue usually got resolved. That simply isn't allowed today (generally), because fighting is "bad".

The trouble is, that life, and school in particular is a pressure vessel. And when you take away the "relief valve" pressure just keeps building up, until the vessel explodes.

 

[ATN082268]

the US lacks one major thing that most of Europe practises thou: UHC...
I put that forth as the deciding difference
a more comprehensive system catches more people early on
I know guys who have had their guns taken away from them, 2 cases of abuse problems (and both got them back after a couple of years and treatment) they are both glad it happened. and a couple of old geezers who started to show signs of dementia/alzheimers

Having access to universal health care is one thing but that is wholly different than universally mandating certain mental examinations. Do people voluntarily submit themselves to mental tests or does the government make them?

 

[zukiphile]

It is an impression outside the States, between the media, the entertainment industry etc that suggests that the medical profession have a tendency to be very "free" with prescription drugs.
What I mean is that the default treatment for any condition will involve a prescription slip when other approaches/therapies could suffice.

That's a bit broad, but not necessarily untrue.

One difference may be that we only get some classes of drugs from medical docs. We don't go see a pharmacist for routine ailments. Unless it is an over the counter drug (cough medicine, aspirin, allergy pills), we see a doc who must first write a prescription. Pharmacies only dispense.

Docs write a lot more prescriptions for pills than they once did in part because pills do so much more than they once did. Modern anti-depressants and anti-clotting drugs have saved many lives.

There was a time when docs may have prescribed pain meds too freely. There are quite a few safeguards in place in my state, so many that we sometimes see the opposite problem - a doc who is reluctant to treat real pain because he doesn't want to endanger his license or be taken in by drug seeking behavior.

I do have reservations about how we medicate children sometimes, but I don't place the blame on docs. We make little boys sit in boring classrooms, give them only modest exercise, and then are shocked when they become difficult for a teacher to handle. I know that drugs can be a real help to some children, but wonder whether schools give them a sufficient option to be a bit odd or difficult without medicating them.


ETA:

Sometimes it was supervised, in a boxing match, more often it wasn't, but there was a fight. Someone won, someone lost, either way, the issue usually got resolved. That simply isn't allowed today (generally), because fighting is "bad".

This is a peeve of mine. Teachers of children in grammar and middle school, almost invariably women, do not understand that for boys "violence" can be a legitimate dispute resolution mechanism. Boys tend to be socially accepting, but require some sort of hierarchic ordering mechanism. Even the lowest ranking member of a group of boys is still a member of that group, whereas girls might simply exclude that individual from all interaction.

When it is handled properly, conflict and resolution between boys can be the basis of mutual respect and even friendship. Alienation and social disengagement are going to be a problem whether a lad finds a firearm or not.

 

[buck460XVR]

As to school shootings, I think ONE of the reasons they seem to happen so often these days (besides the effect of a 24/7 TV news cycle) is that we have been so "successful" in the last couple generations, at stamping out the lesser forms of violence. Kids who got bullied used to be able to fight it out.

Sometimes it was supervised, in a boxing match, more often it wasn't, but there was a fight. Someone won, someone lost, either way, the issue usually got resolved. That simply isn't allowed today (generally), because fighting is "bad".

The trouble is, that life, and school in particular is a pressure vessel. And when you take away the "relief valve" pressure just keeps building up, until the vessel explodes.

Well......... according to statistics and the National School Safety Center since 1994, there has been a significant decline in school-associated violent deaths. Actually there were more incidents of school shootings in the 40s, 50s and 60s, then there has been lately.......you know, back when boys were allowed to "duke it out" and relieve that pressure. Easier access to high capacity semi-automatic weapons has sometimes led to more deaths per incidence, but still overall, deaths have declined. Much of this is because of the new protocols installed by school districts as to access to buildings during the school day when kids are present. Folks with swipes/keys are monitored and have had background checks, otherwise folks need to be "buzzed" in by someone at the door, looking thru bullet proof glass or using a security camera. Schools also have regular "active shooter" drills and training and the idea of just hiding in place is no longer the SOP. The ideas being implemented were brought about by both pro-gun folks and non-gun folk working together for the safety of our children.

While school shooting incidents don't happen as much as they used to, we hear about them more(seems the news shows just pound and pound on these incidents) and for longer durations of time. IMHO, this is what drives many to become an "active shooter". The idea of someone who feels unnoticed and ignored, getting their 15 minutes of fame.

 

[DonnonGT]

There was a scare at my nephew's school last week. A kid that my nephew knew for years called several kids one evening last week and told them not to come to school the next day, that he was going to shoot the place up. He contacted another kid who he knew had access to firearms and asked for a gun. It's unclear if he got his hands on one or not.

Several of the kids that he had contacted reported the message to their parents. The school was open the next day, but with a heavier police presence and warning emails having been sent to all the parents. The kid who made the threats wasn't there. The police were in the loop by the morning, but details on how things were being dealt with are pretty scarce.

It was a tense day, but no one got hurt. That's a win, I guess. It is such a shame that kids today have to grow up in this sort of world. Where do things go from here?

 

[armoredman]

I knew people with rifles in the trucks at school, to go target shooting or hunting after work. We had an on campus ROTC rifle club. We never had a school shooting while I was there. We had some fights, but they were quick, dirty ,and done. This was a few years over 30 years ago.
Yes, Mr. Pond, we DO have doctors who prescribe as therapy - I still deal with it for certain loved ones. I hate it. What we used to call "hyper" is now ADD or ADHD and has to be medicated...when they started talking various meds for my highly intelligent but slightly odd duck kid, I set the foot down and that was the end of it.

 

[ThesNazud]

Absolutely true, in my experience. They will put you on a pill, (or a combination of pills) to see what happens. If the problem is cured, great. If not, they will "adjust" your meds until the problem is cured, or they kill you in the process.

Pills are cheap (for the DOCTOR, they don't take up the Dr's time) and easy, they just write a prescription.

As to school shootings, I think ONE of the reasons they seem to happen so often these days (besides the effect of a 24/7 TV news cycle) is that we have been so "successful" in the last couple generations, at stamping out the lesser forms of violence. Kids who got bullied used to be able to fight it out.

Sometimes it was supervised, in a boxing match, more often it wasn't, but there was a fight. Someone won, someone lost, either way, the issue usually got resolved. That simply isn't allowed today (generally), because fighting is "bad".

The trouble is, that life, and school in particular is a pressure vessel. And when you take away the "relief valve" pressure just keeps building up, until the vessel explodes.

I agree sadly with the 'fight it out'. We just went through this with my youngest, as she was given a three day suspension. The principle didnt want to suspend her, but had to due to the automatic suspension policy the school has. Short story, a boy who had been bulling my daughter and running his mouth all last year, and especially this year on the bus now that big sis isnt there due to HS and MS bus schedules called her a Bitch, then dared her repeatedly to hit him... Well she did, a one shot jab bloodied his nose and ended it before it could begin...

 

[spacemanspiff]

Hugs are better than Drugs!

Well, not all drugs. The kids who suffer mental deficiencies need some drugs.

Hugs are better than SOME Drugs!

Wait....Hugs are better than Guns!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

It is an impression outside the States, between the media, the entertainment industry etc that suggests that the medical profession have a tendency to be very "free" with prescription drugs.
What I mean is that the default treatment for any condition will involve a prescription slip when other approaches/therapies could suffice.

Would that be accurate in your experience?

I think your question was directed at Armoredman but I'll chime in, if Imay, to comment that I think too many psychiatrists rely on psychotropic medcations. In the U.S. psychologists are not allowed to prescribe controlled medications, but a great many psychologists have developed "professional relationships" with psychiatrists. The psychologist thinks a patient needs chemical therapy. Psychologist sends patient to psychiatrist, who helpfully writes a prescription. Patient continues working with psychologist, and periodically sees the psychiatrist when it's time to renew the prescription.

I believe the term is "racket."

 

[armoredman]

Yes, that IS the correct term, indeed.