WWII/Korea/Vietnam? .30 Carbine Opinions?

[jimmy]

I think it's important to remember that the Carbine was developed as a replacement for the pistol, not really as a handy substitute for the Garand. So the most significant performance comparisons are with the 1911. The military figured that a soldier of average marksmanship would be more likely to hit his target with a Carbine than with a 1911. In practice this has almost certainly proven to be true.

I think that the military itself muddled the Carbine-pistol equation when it later modified the Carbine to include a bayonet lug and relatively sophisticated rear sight. As a result of these modifications, Carbines began to look more like battle rifles. Yet the look is deceptive, because the basic performance is unchanged. IOW, underneath the modifications, Carbines are still the same replacements for the pistol that their designers originally intended. As a pistol, so to speak, the Carbine is truly a success. On this basis, I like my Carbine just fine and would not give it up.

My $0.02.

[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited May 03, 2000).]

 

[Oatka]

If you go to the bottom of the page here, there's a search box on authors that gives Crillo's name three times.
http://www.calibrepress-catalog.com/nonsworn/search.cfm

 

[Art Eatman]

Only on occupation duty in Korea; no shooting. But, I'd go to the arms shack and "liberate" a 600-round canister of carbine ammo and go down to the Inchon "beach" at low tide. Several of us would pick on innocent seagulls on full auto.

Messy.

I do recall that reliability was excellent; no failures to feed or fire. No jams.

I have an M-1, now, and it's reliable. Some sort of expanding bullet in the little critter would make it a reasonably efficient self-defense gun.

I bought some 5-round magazines from CTD; don't.

FWIW, Art

 

[C.R.Sam]

In discussing his Korea, armed recon, adventures; Col David Hackworth stated a preference for the Thompson. Thompson was not an issue choice at that time so they used ones liberated from unlucky North Koreans. A lot of Hackworth stuff is available on the web, Dogpile will render lots of goodies if you enter "David Hackworth"

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."

 

[Wayne Dobbs]

In a book available from the NRA Press years ago by the title, "Shots Fired In Anger", by J. Don George (believe the author name is correct), George discussed the M1 Carbine's actual battle performance in some detail. George was with Merrill's Marauders in Burma and they apparently launched quite a few rounds at the Japanese at close quarters. He indicated that the round worked fairly well and seemed to prefer it (the carbine) over the Garand.

George also discussed the terminal performance of the Thompson SMG .45 ACP (adequate though not the lightning bolt of God) and some Japanese small arms, with special emphasis on the Nambu Light Machine Gun, which they truly feared due to its high rate of fire. The book is an interesting read. I don't know if the NRA still has it in stock, but I see it at gun shows in the Dallas area all the time.

Wayne Dobbs

 

[Spectre]

August '99 Guns 'N Ammo makes the "equivalent to .38 special" comment in an otherwise decent article. At least they didn't call it a "Saturday Night Special"!

 

[Patrick Graham]

a few years ago my brother and I did some ad hoc (low budget) penatration tests out in the hinterlands of South Dakota, at my ex-brother-in-law's farm. Sort of interesting results but no suprises.

shooting at two 3/8 inch steel plates back to back at 150 yards distance. I don't know what kind of steel these plates were. They were the side plates from an old 1920/30's rock picker so it wasn't armour plate but it wasn't soft steel either.

From an M1 Garand. 30-06 Black Talon black tip penatrator. Waltzed clean through the first plate and buried the penatrator halfway through the second plate.

From a Colt AR15 Sporter II with a 20' barrel. Canadian green tip 223 steel core. Put a 1/4 inch deep crater on the front plate. We couldn't find the steel core.

From a 30 carbine. Winchester USA 110 gr fmj. Put a brown smudge on the first plate.

 

[BillX]

The Carbine's number one attribute is handiness. This is always a trade off between firepower and handiness. When you have to carry it no gun is too small, when you have to fight with it, no gun is too big. I would rather have a full size Garand-M14 as a rifle. A short barreled pump shotgun would be my choice for a home defense gun. As to the post of a 110 gr. Carbine round having more knockdown power than a 12 ga. )) buck, I have to question that. Over 30 yards, maybe but that is what slugs are for.

No one has addressed the body armor issue. A carbine won't defeat body armor. A shotgun won't either but a slug would ruin your day on body armor. Heavy clothes could defeat a carbine round as it could a lot of handgun rounds. .30 caliber rifles are the ultimate fighting gun. Who knows when you might have to shoot through a car fender or pop machine?

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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times to spit on his hands,hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken

 

[riddleofsteel]

the .30 carbine can be thought of as a semiauto carbine loaded with a .357 light full metal jacket round. i have had an Enforcer (pistol made from carbine action), a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine and full size carbines in this caliber. loaded with softpoint bullets it can be an effective close range killer. i would preffer a camp carbine in .45 ACP or a Ruger carbine in .44 Magnum or even Ruger Police carbine in .40 auto. of course i don't own any of these now. i do have a stockpile of SKS's, better carbine and better round.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.

 

[Hard Ball]

In my experience heavy clothing would not defeat a .30 carbine FMJ. In Korea Chinese soldiers wore heavy multi layer clothing. Carbine bullets regularly penetrated it and kiled the wearers.

 

[RLK]

The carbine's weakness is range. The bullet drops seriously after 200 yards. A 30-06 Garand is just getting started at 200 yards. If you want to reach out and touch someone at 300 yards, the Garand is the way to go. As for hitting a person and seeing whether they stay down, it depends where they are hit. Hitting a person in the center of their gut at 50 yards with a carbine will probably blow out their spine. Hitting them more peripherally will cause delayed deasth by blood lose.

 

[Hard Ball]

The carbine was never designed to replace the Garand. They had different tactical roles. It is interesting to note that Army studies during the Korean War state that effective infantry fire with either M1s or carbines started at 200 yards.

 

[po boy]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>RLK and hardball
I believe your both right on within 150 yds. and reloads with 110 grn SP makes a excellent anti- a--hole round. HP's mushroom to quickly I've tried most bullets and sierra SP and remington SP mushroom well and the jacket doesn't seperate.....great little light carbine with the proper ammo.... Originally posted by Hard Ball:
The carbine was never designed to replace the Garand. They had different tactical roles. It is interesting to note that Army studies during the Korean War state that effective infantry fire with either M1s or carbines started at 200 yards.[/quote]

 

[Arizona Eric]

Beg to differ with BillX about body armor. .30 carbine will defeat armor that stops all handgun rounds including .44 magnum. Seen it done.

I would feel well-armed for short range work (out to 150 yards or so) with a carbine loaded with Silvertips.