Winchester Black Talon...

larryf1952

New member
While going through my ammo and reloading supplies the other day, I found 2 boxes of original .45 Winchester Black Talon...that EVIL ammo that was banned back in the '90's, after a psycho's shooting spree on a Long Island commuter train. Remember that one? I remember that TIME magazine had a full page picture of a Ruger P89 (the shooter's weapon of choice), along with some anti-gun heading, on their front cover within days of the incident. This was the Clinton years, after all. Anyway, I was wondering how many other folks have some Black Talon hiding away in their cabinets or closets? I've heard that this ammo might have some collector value, any truth to that? :confused:
 

bill k

New member
You still find them at gun shows and they are sort of a collectors item. When I saw they were going off the market I bought several boxes just in case.

Here's a question for you, why'd they take them off the market?
 

70-101

Moderator
I believe they were taken off the market because, it was said the bullet could penetrate a police officers bullet proof vest.
 

mete

New member
It was taken off the market because it was named BLACK Talon.It then became a cause for the antigun types .Sell it to a collector .Newer ammo is better anyway.
 

bill k

New member
The main reason black talons were taken off the market was the manufactuor realized it was the only spent bullet that could be positively idenified after it was fired. They were worried about lawsuits.
 
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Number 6

Moderator
Perpetuating misinformation

"Winchester Black Talon...that EVIL ammo that was banned back in the '90's"

Black Talons were NEVER banned. Not here, not then, not ever.

And the idea that a hollow point designed for maximum obturation and energy dump "could penetrate a police officers bullet proof vest" is absurd.

Winchester basically just changed the name as a public relations move, substituting the SXT (known colloquially as the "Same Xact Thing"). ;)
 

DAVID NANCARROW

New member
IIRC, the SXT is the same thing as a Black Talon without the black coating on the bullet. Not a bad hunting round from what I have tried-they seem to open up a little faster than a Hornady XTP, but do penetrate some before they do.

If you have a need to increase your ammo stock, there are those fools at the gunshows who will pay a lot of money for the BT's-I see them sell around here for $1.50 a round and better. Take that dough and get something newer such as Remington's brass jackets, Speer makes a nice JHP or others. :D
 

mete

New member
I remember the anti-gun rants .One congressman said it filled the body with little pieces of metal , another[My senator Schumer] said "it hooks into the flesh" !!! The name BLACK Talon implied [to the liberals] that cops bought it to shoot blacks.It was a poor choice of a name ,Winchestr's mistake.........The best defensive ammo today is designed to meet the FBI criteria for penetration and expansion so you can't go wrong with any of the premium ammo, they are really excellent.
 

Danindetroit

New member
I have heard from this forum that the current SXT's are different than the original BT's. The original BT's had 6 petals with sharp points, the current SXT's have 8 with no sharp points. The win ranger T series seems to have the original BT design, 6 petals and sharp points, no black coating. I heard that the armor piercing thing came about from a reporter that observed military AP rounds have a Black tip, tracers have a different color, and so on. I think the coating was a precursor to the black coating on the combined tech bullets by nosler, and win. I hope the current T series has been upgraded through the years, to keep up with advances. This is a rendering of what the ranger t series looks like from win LE catalog. It looks like an expanded BT a guy showed me.


law_upset.gif


The link below is the little I have heard about BT wounds, and T series wounds, in the why do people hate the .40 thread. Like most bullets, it isn't a magic killer, wounds are normal, if you are interested check out the link. I have no idea why a decently designed bullet is not available to anyone who wants one.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156659&page=3
 
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larryf1952

New member
Many good and informative replies here, I did not know many of these details. I did make a poor choice of words when I said that Black Talon had been banned, I knew that it hadn't been technically banned by an act of law, but that Winchester had voluntarily withdrawn it due to the public relations debacle that it raised after the LI shootings.

I remember seeing the ads for BT in the American Rifleman, and distinctly recall how the mushroom was supposed to quickly expand due to the cuts in the jacket. It did look more "dramatic" than normal HP's of the time, which I think had a lot to do with why the liberals got their panties all tied up in such a big knot over it. I also think it was the BT that spawned the likes of the PMC Starfire, and later on the XTP, Gold Dot, and Golden Sabre bullets...someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I've never actually fired a BT, I reload using just plain old Remington and Winchester JHP's, for the most part. I'll just keep 'em around for nostalgia sake, unless someone wants 'em so bad they're willing to pay me $50 a box or something ridiculous like that. :eek:
 

dfaugh

New member
Not sure about $50 a box

But the last ones I saw for sale, they wanted $36 for a box of 9mm, and they weren't even the +P+!!!! IIRC when I got mine I paid $16 for one box and $18 each for other 2. Maybe if I hang onto them long enough, I can afford that new car..... :D
 

Danindetroit

New member
The Black Talon was coated with a proprietary moly-type compound, not teflon. Both the old Talons and the new commercial SXT's use nickel-plated cases. The main differences are that the SXT's use eight-petal jackets instead of the six-petal ones of the Talon, and lack the sharp tips at the end of the jacket petals. Other than that, they're largely the same deep-sump JHP's with a reverse-taper jacket.
The above quote from a previous post on the comercial sxt's being sold. I over stated the chance of a T series helping to stop a person. It looks like about 1 in 20 shootings with the t series may help. I see no reason that anyone should not be able to use a bullet that helps save their life.

There is a diff between the LE T series, and the commercial SXT's. The LE t series, is hopefully an updated, BT, I wonder if bullets are like cars, and the companies have a planned obseliance for bullets just like cars. I was told by an old Heavy equipment mechanic, that cat has being using 4 valve-heads in there engines sinces the 60's. I know some race cars from back then had 6 valve heads.

As a bullet penetrates soft tissue, it loses velocity, and this affects its "effective diameter." When the bullet first penetrates and expands, it is moving so quickly that it crushes almost all soft tissue it comes into direct contact with. However, as velocity begins to slow, soft tissue is then able to stretch around the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder to move out of the way. As the bullet slows further it plows more and more tissue aside instead of crushing it.

Near the end of the wound track, the diameter of the permanent cavity might be less than 60 percent of the expanded diameter of the bullet. The last few inches of the wound track are the most important because this is where the vital cardiovascular structures are located that you’re trying to damage.

This is where the police only Winchester Ranger Talon (formerly Black Talon and Ranger SXT) bullet departs from conventional expanding hollowpoint bullets. Ranger Talon adds an additional wounding mechanism: cutting.

When Ranger Talon expands, its copper jacket peels back to form six sharp claws. These claws protrude outward just slightly beyond the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder.

Upon impact with flesh Ranger Talon performs identical to conventional hollowpoint bullets. However, as it penetrates and slows it does not suffer a decrease in effective bullet diameter. This is because tissue that stretches and flows around the smooth shoulder of the mushroom-shaped lead core comes into contact with the sharp copper jacket claws and is lacerated.

These lacerations contribute little to overall wound severity.

However, if Ranger Talon happens to pass very close to a major cardiovascular structure, instead of merely shoving it aside as it passes by, one of the six claws might be in position to cut the wall of this structure to cause profuse bleeding.

In order for Ranger Talon's increased wounding potential to be realized, at least two conditions must be met: 1) the bullet's wound track must pass close enough to a major blood vessel to physically touch it, and 2) one of the talons must be in the right orientation to physically contact the wall of the blood vessel as the bullet rifles past. If one of these two conditions are not met, the wound will be no more severe than any other JHP expanding bullet.

This very slight advantage could be just enough to save the life of a police officer who has to shoot a psychotic, enraged or chemically intoxicated attacker who is oblivious to being shot.

This additional cutting mechanism gives Ranger Talon the potential to be approximately 3% to 5% more effective than other expanding bullets of the same caliber. In one out of every 20-30 shootings, Ranger Talon might make a difference.

The Black Talon bullet came under intense negative media scrutiny after it was criminally misused in a shooting rampage in a San Francisco office building in July 1993. Nine people were killed and six wounded by gunman Gian Luigi Ferri. The news media reported falsehoods that Black Talon's "razor sharp claws" created particularly ghastly, devastating and unsurvivable wounds.


The forensic pathologist who performed the autopsies of the fatal shooting victims gave a detailed presentation about his findings at the 1994 IWBA Wound Ballistics Conference in Sacramento: "The 101 California Shooting: The Black Talon Bullet," Boyd Stevens, M.D., Medical Examiner, San Francisco, CA. He stated that the wound trauma produced by Black Talon was unremarkable, meaning the wounds were no different nor any more severe than wounds produced by typical JHP handgun bullets. Each of the victims incurred fatal injury because a bullet passed through a vital structure.
 

Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
Incidentally, I believe that the man who designed the Black Talon went on to design the Golden Saber, another cartridge with a heavy jacket that uses sharp edges to assist in wounding.

Also, fans of the Black Talon/Ranger Talon/Ranger SXT should look at the piccie on the bottom of the next box of Winchester Platinum Tip hunting ammo they run across. That expanded projectile sure does look familiar, don't it? ;)
 

Danindetroit

New member
I do not see the sharp protrusions, on the Gold dot it is unmistkable on a bt type bullet, that expands. The sharp points stick out a little farther than the rest of the bullet in the 2 win examples I have actually seen. I have no idea what they shot them into, or what a rib shot would do to them.

GLDSAB.JPG


That is a pic of the golden sabre, looks very close to a BT. I would like to see a top view of it. It looks like a good SD round. The sharp points look like they do not stick out beyond the six petal, but this might not matter. Platinum tips are in 41,44, and 454mags, and they have no cuts in the case to help expansion.

Supreme SXT: Redesigned "civilian" version of the original Black Talon bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has eight serrations on its meplat, and no talons. Supreme SXT is packaged in boxes of 20 cartridges.

Ranger Talon: The second generation version of the original Black Talon SXT bullet. The cartridge consists of a copper-jacketed bullet seated in a nickel-plated case. The bullet has six serrations on its meplat, and six talons. Ranger Talon is packaged in boxes of 50 cartridges marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition."

There is no Federal law that prohibits a private citizen from purchasing or possessing any of the Black Talon bullet variants. Additionally, there is no Federal law, which forbids private possession and use of "law enforcement" handgun ammunition, except specifically defined armor-piercing handgun ammunition. Black Talon, Ranger SXT and Ranger Talon do not meet the criteria for armor-piercing handgun ammunition as defined by Federal law. However, there may be State or local laws that ban private possession of Black Talon and its variants
 

Avizpls

New member
I have a magazine full of the LE ranger SXT, and must admint I am trepid about using it. I definatly could see a prosecuter suggesting that I had malicious intent from the time I bought them.

Still keeping my one mag of .40 155gr Hydra-shoks and just ordered a box of Gold dots in 165gr
 
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