Wilson Combat 45 or Springfield

[FireForged]

I have decided to go ahead and buy a 45. I have put it off for long enough, plus the wife says its ok. I have narrowed it down to the $995 Wilson and the $711 Springfield. If you had to choose and your 2 requirements were "reliability" and "customer service", which would you buy??? Thanks in advance..

Browning HP
Glock 23

 

[Erik]

Which Springfield is the $711 one? I just bought a Govt Parkerized Loaded model for $520 clear. The blued model was about fifty more.

 

[skeeter]

You must be talking about the polymer Wilson. right? I spoke to them today and their least expensive Wilson is expensive at $1600 and the plastic ones for $1000. I like their real life time guarantee and wonder why Kimber only has a year if they are so good. Kimber knows the MIM parts will not last that long! They sure are cheap to make and is one reason they compete so will in the market place.I think Wilson is a much better product and believe they use Kimber slide and frames. Think Sprindfield gets their frames and slide from Brazil but not sure. A all metal Wilson at $1000 is a bargain. I would buy it. Please let me know what model this is. Wilson said they would charge me $500 to replace the MIM parts in a Kimber. They have a great customer service attitude according to some friends of mine.

 

[killer45auto]

I`d go with the wilson any day over a springfield,second choice is a kimber though,i dont like the frame to slide fir of the springfield guns( too loose )

 

[Ankeny]

Skeeter:

Yep, Springfield slides and frames are from Brazil. Like mine anyway, even if the slide is loose. With the difference between the Wilson and the Springfield I bought a new Dillon and a bunch of bullets and powder.

Oh, almost forgot. Brian Bilby at Advanced Combat Pistols has my Kimber right now. He is replacing the MIM parts and cleaning up the chamber for a fraction of Wilson's price. I'll let you knoe how it works out.

[This message has been edited by Ankeny (edited February 15, 2000).]

 

[bubbaturbo]

So are the Wilsons better because they use Kimber slides and frames or in spite of the Kimber slides and frames? Which parts are MIM and which ones are supposed to not last long. I called Chip McCormick to order some of their parts and was told at least some of them (like slide stops) were made by Kimber for them. I thought it would have been the other way around, i.e. McCormick making Kimber parts. I wonder if Wilson uses other Kimber parts too.

 

[killer45auto]

I think the whole mim is blown out of proportion i been shooting para ordnance pistols for years with parts made that way ,when they do wear out just replace them its no big deal as most people will never wear them out.but i think the mim parts in the kimber are the hammer and sear ,I have a kimber goldmatch whick i love its as good as my P13 custom i had built a few years ago and i saved a lot of money going with the kimber.So far i only got a couple hundred rounds through it though where as i got over 15,000 through the para!

 

[224]

Skeeter,

If Wilson thinks that the MIM parts are so bad that they need to be replaced why are they using MIM parts themselves?

Specifically:

#455B Value line Speed Hammer
##314C Value Line Sear

Quote from the Wilson 2000 catalog:

"They're manufactured using the MIM process which produces a quality product at a much lower price than possible with conventional manufacturing methods."

These parts are used by Wilson in the following pistols:

KZ-45 Tactical Carry Pistol
Millenium Protector
Sentinel Ultra Compact
Protector compact
Protector
CQB(Close Quarters Battle) Pistol

If anyone wants to get a Wilson tell them to stear clear of these junkers. After all they can't be any good, they're made with MIM parts.

 

[PT-Partners]

There are MIM parts and there are MIM parts meaning. There is no way to mill or forge all of the parts for the 1911. The cost would make the gun in the $5000 plus range. MIM or otherwise know as Metal Injected Molding process (I think that is correct) has levels of quality, hardness and durability. MIM is a casting process. Caspian is cast. So is Ruger for that matter. The process requires standards. If they are low you have garbage as evidenced by breakeage. If they are high you don't have breakage as evidenced by the parts Wilson calls "bulletproofed" hardened and toughened by some additional heat treatment. (I am not a metallurgist).
So some MIM is garbage as evidenced by breakage and other lasts almosts to infinity. It all depends on specification, tolerances, standards and the caliber of the process used.

I'll put it this way. I flew helicopters my last ten years in the Army and I sure didn't want some cut rate poor quality parts holding my main rotor on. (I shudder when I think our congress ran things on the low cost bidder).

You get what you pay for front end or back end.

Be safe and keep the brass flying

Terry Peters
http://www.pt-partners.com

 

[George Hill]

Springfield is very underrated.
I will put my Brazilian framed Springfield against a Wilson Combat any day. I am not degrading the Wilson gun by any means... What I am saying is that my TRP is THAT GOOD.
Kimbers need not apply.

 

[WESHOOT2]

Just buy the one you like

 

[goat]

My old man always told me that you get what you pay for.I found that this phrase holds true most of the time.WILSON!

 

[shamster]

MIM (Metal Injected Molding) is a process where powdered metal is injected into a mold of a specific part, mixed with a polymer binder. The whole thing is then heated, and I believe the binder is removed. Most MIM problems come from poor heat treatment I believe.
Yes, Caspian and Ruger have cast parts, but they are not MIM. They have a casting (mold) of the part, and pour molten metal into it, not powdered metal.

 

[Svt]

Go with the Wilson. I have two (Sentinel and CQB) and they're great! The cheapest Wilson is still a lot better then a bunch of "other" 1911's out there. You decide on the "others".

------------------
Svt
RKBA! NRA, GOA, VFW
Son's Place

"Rangers Lead the Way"

 

[Steve Smith]

Here's my two cents, and a bit more:

1. After speaking with Wilson on a LONG phone call, I did get them to acknowledge that they use frames made by the same maker as Kimber's frames. (did you notice how that's worded?) They said that Kimber had some problems with their specs, and the Wilson frames are made differently. (same material, different measurements!)

2. I really like my Springfields, but I've never heard of a $711 one...either $500-$600 or $1000 for the TRP. Make sure you're camparing apples to apples.

3. For around a grand, you're also in Rock River's ball park...in other words, do you want to spend $700 or less on a fine working (though not especially pretty) Springfield; spend $1000 on a Rock-River or bottom of the line Wilson, or $1500 on a real custom (Bilby/Heinie) or a custom/production Wilson?

4. Oh, yeah...here's another biggie! The stock Kimber parts are McCormick's "bargain" line of parts (hence breakage and poor tolerances). Some pistolsmiths use MC's stuff, but only the top shelf stuff. For more on this, ask Brian Bilby.

 

[PVerdieck]

Oh come on FrontSite, like the guy from Wilson wouldn't tell you the same thing if they were using the exact same parts.

A bunch of these companies have seen their margins get hit by Kimber.

The only facts about the differences in MIM are those borne out by experience, not vendor hearsay.

 

[Steve Smith]

PVerdieck, that's not what I said. Also, let's not start a war over this. I said that Wilson is using frames made by the same maker as Kimber's frames, just different measurements (this was told to me without a sales reason for Wilson to say it, so I think I can trust them on this one.) Also, considering the MIM parts, I DIDN'T say that Wilson has said SQUAT about McCormick nor MIM parts...just that several pistolsmiths know that there's a difference in the part quality. I do not know this from 1st hand experience, but I have seen Brian Bilby discuss this several times in the past.

 

[1911Heaven]

With reliability and customer service as your two major criteria the choice would be Wilson. I have owned Wilson Pistols for some time now and the reliability is absolutly 100%;thousands of full charge rounds with zero failures. Best accuracy of anything I own including a variety of 1911's from some well known smiths that if they had to be duplicated today would be hundreds more than the Wilson's. Bill Wilson's customer service is legendary...if his name is on it,it will be right. Some time ago,I ordered a set of custom grips from him,and after a few days shooting one of the medallions fell out...called & requested another intending to glue it back myself & 4 days later found the medallion,along with an additional set of grips in the mail. This was a fifty dollar solution to a fifty cent problem which,in my category,placed him in the Great American Hero slot for Customer Service GURU.Shortly after that,I aquired my first pistol from him and if the entire collection had to be reduced to a single piece,it would be the Wilson that would stay.

 

[RikWriter]

Ah, more Kimber Bashing...God forbid a day go by on TFL without someone talking down Kimber. Meanwhile, no jams or parts breakage in any of mine, and with three Master Dealers within 30 minutes of me, only 4 guns returned for any reason out of literally hundreds sold.

[This message has been edited by RikWriter (edited February 16, 2000).]

 

[FireForged]

Thanks for the advise guys, keep it comming. I am leaning towards the Wilson KZ-45 Tactical with polymer frame for $995. The Springfield that is in the running is the 1911 A1 in SS for $697.00.



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