Will we ever see a resurgence in steel??
- Thread starter cslinger
- Start date
I think it's analogous 'print media' vs. 'online media' consumption...Some people still prefer the feel of a 'paper newspaper and or magazine' as opposed to same being had electronically via phone, tablet, comp, etc...Same applies to a Browning Hi Power, S&W 686 vs. a Glock 19 or LCR or some variation thereof... Of course, one's age may be a predominant factor in this equation?
OldMarksman
Staff
Most unlikely.
Aside from cost and weight, the design of products that must be manufactured by removing metal or casting it or forging involves certain other limitations on the end product. Sam Colt and John Browning were able to do fantastic things with what they had, but the FN 509, Glock, and others of their ilk could not have been made then.
Differences are manifested in parts count and nuances of geometry.
Everyone is lamenting the demise of the Browning HP, which was a legend in its time, but I'll wager that objective customers would choose the 509 every day of the week.
Aside from cost and weight, the design of products that must be manufactured by removing metal or casting it or forging involves certain other limitations on the end product. Sam Colt and John Browning were able to do fantastic things with what they had, but the FN 509, Glock, and others of their ilk could not have been made then.
Differences are manifested in parts count and nuances of geometry.
Everyone is lamenting the demise of the Browning HP, which was a legend in its time, but I'll wager that objective customers would choose the 509 every day of the week.
This all depends on what question is being asked.
Why does anyone still make revolvers? Why single action revolvers?
It's because there is a market for them.
So why pistols made of steel and aluminum alloys? Why don't they all disappear now?
Because there is a large market for them.
There is no doubt that polymer framed guns, long and short will increasingly dominate, as they do now, the military and law enforcement arenas. Their utility and greatly lower costs of production make that a given. It's why the question is even raised, because it's a fact now. But that fact does not mean that metal framed guns will receded into oblivion.
Metal framed gun are doing just fine at present and will do that for the foreseeable future. There share of the market may decline some.
Will polymer framed AR's and pistols disappear and metal and wood long guns again become dominant? No that won't happen. But that also doesn't mean that AKs will disappear inside of 5 years and Marlin leverguns in 45/70 or 30/30 will cease production in 2020 either.
CZ is going to continue selling both it's metal and poly sidearms for a long time. They've been doing well despite the downturn.
tipoc
Why does anyone still make revolvers? Why single action revolvers?
It's because there is a market for them.
So why pistols made of steel and aluminum alloys? Why don't they all disappear now?
Because there is a large market for them.
There is no doubt that polymer framed guns, long and short will increasingly dominate, as they do now, the military and law enforcement arenas. Their utility and greatly lower costs of production make that a given. It's why the question is even raised, because it's a fact now. But that fact does not mean that metal framed guns will receded into oblivion.
Metal framed gun are doing just fine at present and will do that for the foreseeable future. There share of the market may decline some.
Will polymer framed AR's and pistols disappear and metal and wood long guns again become dominant? No that won't happen. But that also doesn't mean that AKs will disappear inside of 5 years and Marlin leverguns in 45/70 or 30/30 will cease production in 2020 either.
CZ is going to continue selling both it's metal and poly sidearms for a long time. They've been doing well despite the downturn.
tipoc
ShootistPRS
New member
I think the real question is what material will replace the polymers that they are currently using. Steel guns are going to be around for a very long time because people like me like the steel.
Another way of looking at it is this...Ford began mass producing gas powered automobiles and trucks in 1903. Within 2-3 decades the horsedrawn wagon was sidelined and all but gone (some use in agriculture, and carriage rides, etc.).
It's been over 50 years since the AR was introduced and over 30 since the Glock. And still...
tipoc
It's been over 50 years since the AR was introduced and over 30 since the Glock. And still...
tipoc
JoeSixpack
New member
And over a 100 years for 1911.. and look how many "me too" brands make them.
It's almost easier to name the ones that don't.
It's almost easier to name the ones that don't.
jetinteriorguy
New member
In my own experience I have a fair amount of both, polymer for carry and practice. But for any serious range shooting I'm really loving the steel/all metal guns. All my revolvers are steel, and I have an all steel FEG HiPower clone,an all metal CZ 75B SA, and an all steel Star in 9mm. Other than my P07, my polymers are pretty good for me to 7 yds, the P07 is good out to 15 yds no problem. But all my steel/metal guns are much better once you get beyond 10yds for me.
thibaultfelix40
New member
It is not the guns, it's the parts. What is the best material for this one part under consideration. I don't forsee plastic barrels with steel stocks.
I enjoy shooting steel and was quite fond of my cz75. I'd even consider a 1911 if good ones weren't as pricey as they are. The aesthetics and history of a 19 11 or browning hi power tug as strong as ever.
However I never enjoyed carrying the cz and while you might say it's because I'm a female I doubt many men want to carry a 3+ pound gun.
Polymer works too well for carry guns. While guns like the glock 34 are good for competition shooting.
I think if there was a flood of demand for solely metal guns then we'd see the companies sell them accordingly. And in fact there are such models out there.
I think steel will stick around just as SA revolvers and lever action rifles have. I'd say people will shoot them for fun and nostalgia even as the contemporary stuff keeps evolving.
Sadly though I think we're almost certain to see far fewer choices in all guns thanks to the tide of gun control. I look to canada and Europe for what these entities want for us.
However I never enjoyed carrying the cz and while you might say it's because I'm a female I doubt many men want to carry a 3+ pound gun.
Polymer works too well for carry guns. While guns like the glock 34 are good for competition shooting.
I think if there was a flood of demand for solely metal guns then we'd see the companies sell them accordingly. And in fact there are such models out there.
I think steel will stick around just as SA revolvers and lever action rifles have. I'd say people will shoot them for fun and nostalgia even as the contemporary stuff keeps evolving.
Sadly though I think we're almost certain to see far fewer choices in all guns thanks to the tide of gun control. I look to canada and Europe for what these entities want for us.
Model12Win
Moderator
I don't think so, but many are discovering the old steelys are a hoot.
Maybe because Pontiacs are no longer made at all?
General Motors, Ford and Chrysler all did re-introduce updated versions for their 1960/70s "muscle cars" and they have sold well. I know they're not the same, but then I don't think anyone today would be willing to spend a lot of money on a Dodge Challenger with no air conditioner, an AM radio and vinyl upholstery like the one I used to have when I was in High School.
Similarly, even if there was a market for retro firearms (other than the 1911) the designs would updated to use the latest technologies and safety features so they likewise wouldn't be quite the same.
Why not?
What would have stopped Browning or Bergman from doing an overmould in natural rubber of a pressed steel frame? Apart from the fact:
- There would be no appreciable weight savings because the materials were not materially lighter?
- The market was unlikely to accept it?
Rubber back then is not the rubber of today. Even hard rubber grips made during that period of time were quite susceptible to shrinkage, cracking, etc. The guns would have been heavier and no where near as strong.
What manufacturers were producing in 1900 was state of the art. It was the most advanced that was possible for the time and state of tech and science.
The tech to develop polymer framed handguns was not developed till during the Second World War and in the immediate aftermath. The M16 was the first viable weapon to do it. This was followed by H&Ks efforts and later Glock.
Plastic Injection Molding was not as advanced till after the war.
Even aluminum framed handguns were not possible till the War.
The short answer is the science and tech were not there.
tipoc
Pond James Pond
New member
I haven't read the whole thread, largely because I think mot posts will say something similar.
People often bemoan how a 60's S&W is way better built than a modern one. The reason? Cost.
Steel is always going to be more expensive to work than polymer. Polymer has plenty of advantages over steel too. So really it's only the look, feel and sometimes the outright strength that keeps steel in the production process any more than necessary.
For the newer generation of shooters, polymer is the norm. It's weight is the norm. Its resilience is the norm. Its low maintenance is the norm. Many might not even see the point of steel beyond the barrel and a few other parts.
So, no, I don't see it making a comeback in any longterm fashion. But nor do I think it will disappear altogether either. If it manages to stay as relevant as it is today, it will be doing well...
People often bemoan how a 60's S&W is way better built than a modern one. The reason? Cost.
Steel is always going to be more expensive to work than polymer. Polymer has plenty of advantages over steel too. So really it's only the look, feel and sometimes the outright strength that keeps steel in the production process any more than necessary.
For the newer generation of shooters, polymer is the norm. It's weight is the norm. Its resilience is the norm. Its low maintenance is the norm. Many might not even see the point of steel beyond the barrel and a few other parts.
So, no, I don't see it making a comeback in any longterm fashion. But nor do I think it will disappear altogether either. If it manages to stay as relevant as it is today, it will be doing well...
Right now polymer framed handguns are selling for less than $300. over to CDNN. The manufacturers still make a profit off of that.
https://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms.html
Now some of this is the slump in the gun market right now and the post panic buying let down which the industry still isn't out of. But the other piece of it is that polymer as a material in gun manufacture is no longer a guarantee of extensive profits.
So many polymer framed guns are being produced presently, many of them very good guns, that the rate of return on investment (how much you get back for each dollar invested) has been shrinking. This return is what fuels competition and innovation to begin with it. Glock was able to dominate the market for over two decades, but it's share of that market has been declining the last decade as others adapted and produced comparable products at a lower price or with more features. This has forced Glock to upgrade to compete and their profit margin to fall.
Polymer framed guns are mostly steel. It's steel that comprises the critical internal working parts, slide, barrel, structure of the frame, etc. The real innovation was the use of new materials and production processes that made manufacturer less expensive in time and capital investment. Polymer framed guns are the new norm. They dominate military and law enforcement and will for the foreseeable future.
They also dominate self defense use by the non-military population.
But this leaves us with a question. Why revolvers? Why are they still made?
It's because the majority of handgun use in the U.S. and some other places is not for self-defense. It's for sport shooting. For this reason steel and alloy framed guns will be around for the remainder of this century (barring an unforeseen collapse in the industry).
Is a Beretta 92 a worse gun for home defense than a Glock 17? No it's not. So it will be around.
tipoc
https://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms.html
Now some of this is the slump in the gun market right now and the post panic buying let down which the industry still isn't out of. But the other piece of it is that polymer as a material in gun manufacture is no longer a guarantee of extensive profits.
So many polymer framed guns are being produced presently, many of them very good guns, that the rate of return on investment (how much you get back for each dollar invested) has been shrinking. This return is what fuels competition and innovation to begin with it. Glock was able to dominate the market for over two decades, but it's share of that market has been declining the last decade as others adapted and produced comparable products at a lower price or with more features. This has forced Glock to upgrade to compete and their profit margin to fall.
Polymer framed guns are mostly steel. It's steel that comprises the critical internal working parts, slide, barrel, structure of the frame, etc. The real innovation was the use of new materials and production processes that made manufacturer less expensive in time and capital investment. Polymer framed guns are the new norm. They dominate military and law enforcement and will for the foreseeable future.
They also dominate self defense use by the non-military population.
But this leaves us with a question. Why revolvers? Why are they still made?
It's because the majority of handgun use in the U.S. and some other places is not for self-defense. It's for sport shooting. For this reason steel and alloy framed guns will be around for the remainder of this century (barring an unforeseen collapse in the industry).
Is a Beretta 92 a worse gun for home defense than a Glock 17? No it's not. So it will be around.
tipoc
FairWarning
New member
Probably no resurgence, but I will continue to have mostly steel guns, just as I will continue to drive my noisy, fast internal combustion engine sports cars a la Mad Max instead of electric cars if need be. 
SonOfScubaDiver
New member
Resurgence or not, I bought my first steel gun earlier this year--a SP101, 3 inch barrel--and I absolutely love it! I also purchased a Bersa Thunder, also steel, and love it too. I don't have anything against polymer pistols. I own four of them. But there's just something about my two steel guns that makes me like them over the polymer ones. In fact, my gun wish list doesn't include any more polymer guns.