Will the "NRA will work out of the White House" speech hurt Bush?

[Waitone]

Ever since Jimmy Carter I tend to give due weight to the opinion of someone from the state from which a presidential candidate arises. That is why alarm bells in my head went off when Clinton showed up. So I tend to seriously consider what a state's resident says. . . before I dismiss it or accept it.

But in the case of Bush vs Gore the alarm bells have to be ignored for one very simple reason. Gore as president will simply ensure the continuation of Clintonism. The Bill of Rights will be shredded and abused. Executive Orders will be the means of imposing a truly frightening and radical environmental agenda on the electorate. The organized crime elements of Clinton's administration will continue in power. His Fascist bureaucrats will continue in power. Good news is the Chinese influence will be reduced (I did not say eliminated). Bad news is Russinan gov't/mob influence will increase. Remember, Clinton was China's boy. Gore is Russia's boy.

Am I happy with Dubya? At this point, NO! Can we do worse? Oh yea! This year we have the possibility (ever so slightly) of fixing some of the moral rot we suffer. It will not happen with Gore, it might happen with Dubya.



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Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry Goldwater--1964

 

[michaelg]

If you're going to talk about abuse of power, what about that bunch of right-wing extremist nut-cases that call themselves "Congressmen"? Guys like Tom DeLay and Bob Barr? Jesse Helms banging his shoe in a snit at the UN screaming "We will bury you!" What am embarassment! Newt Gingrich, that patron saint of holier-than-thou Republicans who sat in judgement of Clinton and spent millions--milions!--of our money on their politically-obsessed agenda while he was cheating on his SECOND wife with his administrative aide! "Family Values" my ass! Hypocracy knows no bounds like a right-wing born-again Christian Republican with his own judgemental agenda! Bush is the key to unlock the White House door to those crack-pots. His crowd has been filled with elitist, wealthy big businessmen who criticized Clinton all these years for dodging the draft while their daddies got them in the National Guard during the '60's and away from Viet Nam. All those refusing to salute Clinton as commander-in-chief.... what are you going to do if Dubya is in the same position? Forget about who's got the Russians or Chinese in their camp.... George Junior has the wealthy oil and banking players pulling his strings... that's closer to home! They don't care about you and me.... they'd just as soon throw us concealed gun licenses while ripping us off through the back door. You can ignore a voter from Bush's home state all you want... but just remember the story of Paul Revere! The Bushies are coming! The Bushies are coming!

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"I love to do things that scare me, for without fear there is no courage."

 

[Monkeyleg]

michaelg, you're not going to like what I have to say. The only real friends of the 2nd
are the "right-wing extemist nut cases" you rail about. There's been a ton of Republican-bashing on these forums, primarily because many Republicans aren't principled enough in their conservatism to support the Constitution 100%. And now we have you, and you represent a segment of the gun-owning population that is already too large. It's no wonder we can't even hold our ground: we aren't united, we allow ourselves to be divided and defined by the media, and we have
far too many in our ranks who are too myopic to see the threat that a Gore presidency holds. This really saddens me.

BTW, it was Nikita Kruschev, and not Jesse Helms, who banged his shoe on the table at the UN and who said, "we will bury you." I think Helms would take some umbrage at your confusion over those historical moments.

Dick

 

[Monkeyleg]

Another follow-up point. There are approximately 200 million voting-age citizens in the US. There are also about 80 million gun owners. Only about 45% of eligible voters, or roughly 90 million, turned out in '92 and '96. If we, as gun owners, got our act together, we could nominate and vote into office anyone we wanted. Heck, Bluesman could be president if we wanted it that way. But, noooo, we have trap shooters who don't care about "black gun" owners who don't care about
muzzleloader owners who don't care about silhouette shooters who don't care about plinkers. And we've got waaaaayyyy too many who don't even care enough to vote or, if they do, they vote for the enemy. And then they whine when their 18 round "race guns" are illegal, or when their pump/semiauto shotgun becomes a Class III "destructive device." We've got the union guys who think
their hunting rifles will never go away, and so they vote for Clinton/Gore because "da bosses" said they'll get 5 cents an hour more, not realizing that their president's going to take 10 cents more in taxes.

F**k! I gotta stop writing before I blow an artery.

Dick

 

[michaelg]

There was no confusion about the Kruschev quote, Monkeyleg. I was pointing out that, as ridiculous and embarassing as that politician's performance before the international community was for his country back then, that's as ridiculous and embarassing Helm's performance was for us today. He was, and is, a shameful disgrace to our fine country--as Krushcev was to his. Embarassing behavior has no corner on either side of the political spectrum. And I must point out that there is a difference between uniting for a cause and abandoning one's mind for the sake of one issue. The myopia is in the emotional surrender to these right wing nut-cases for the sake of a single issue. Justifying that these people "are our only friends" in order to back them is the myopia. The Nazis took control of Germany due to economic failure, a single issue (not to trivialize the state of Germany in the 1920's, there were other issues, but this was the largest). Their means to instilling political power and economic recovery were ignored because they promised attractive ends. We all know what happened there. You can be as sad as you want about a Gore presidency, my friend, but it doesn't represent the "boogey man" you fear. Gore was always seen as a moderate Democrat in his Senate days. He's a reasonable, intelligent, hard-working, if flawed guy. HE served in Viet Nam because he felt it was his duty. Bush shirked his duty. What was George Junior doing while Al was lugging his pack through the bush in Nam? While Al was serving his country as a moderate in the government, George Junior was talking investors into flushing money down the toilet in failing oil businesses. While Al was attempting to bring some balance and compromize between the ambulance-chasing right wing and a leaderless, wandering left, George Junior was bilking the Dalls-Ft. Worth citizenry out of millions of dollars to build a ballpark in Arlington so he could improve the value of the Texas Rangers, sell the team and rake in millions to his own pockets! Gore is not the enemy. Mindless devotion to people who would "bury you" for the sake of one issue is the enemy. I'll paraphrase an old bumper sticker: "Vote for Bush, It's Easier Than Thinking".

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"I love to do things that scare me, for without fear there is no courage."

 

[Battler]

Michelg, you had me going there.

I have learned a lot from your post, though. You made some good points.

However, Gore being hard working?

Yes, Gore fights freedom passionately and diligently - Bush seems more like a sit-around do nothing sort.

Gore is not as stupid as we'd like to think; but I used to think he was a leftist/envirowacko; but now realized that he is utterly unprincipled. Look at the Elian thing, he goes where the votes are. He takes a stand not based on personal beliefs but where he stands the best chance of winning the most people with his debating style. For example: The environment : He will go on TV and say "notice all the strange weather lately, all the tornadoes and floods? We caused that with cars!" Of "Who could not notice the hot weather and not believe we need to do something about greenhouse effect" (i.e. making the speech during a heatwave). I know this is crap, and so does he; but he knows his audience and most will believe him.

Yes, voting for one issue is a little silly but it is an important one. RKBA is special for two reasons, one is that gun rights taken away by govt. will never come back - and one day people who live in the US will have govt. turn on them (always happens eventually - even if it takes hundreds of years). And secondly, it goes back to right to life, someone who would deny you the tools to defend your life, and rationalize that it prevents criminals from killing, even if that's correct, is putting your right to live behind the "needs" of the collective. This is a powerful position.

All rights come from the right to life. That includes the right to own property, something most people can no longer understand under taxation.

Part of what makes Gore seem hard-working and great is that people today seem to want action from their politicians. Imagine a president going for 4 years without passing a law? Imagine that, no power/freedom taken from the people to the govt. in 4 years. But most people see activity, even negative, as a good thing and inactivity bad - after all, they're employees, they should be doing things.

Still, thanks for your thoughts. . . I think Gore will win, and after reading your post I'll be a little less depressed when it happens.

I WILL be more depressed when I'm handing in my guns, lose my ability to criticize govt. and not go to jail, and paying European tax rates, though.

Battler.

 

[Monkeyleg]

" HE served in Viet Nam because he felt it was his duty. Bush shirked his duty. What was George Junior doing while Al was lugging his pack through the bush in Nam? " Gee, michaelg, the guys in his squad said their job was to make sure that Al never saw any action (read: bodyguards). And Al a moderate?
Reasonable? He's changed his position on everything from tobacco to abortion to gun control. And he is on record as saying on the Larry King Live show last Sept 29th that "we need to look at the idea of banning handguns,
licensing and fingerprinting gun owners and registering all guns."

If your posts are meant to be tongue-in-cheek, then I apologize for not recognizing the humor. If you're serious, I don't want to be anywhere near the cliff you're going to jump off.

Dick

 

[Alex Johnson]

Michaelg,

If you can't see the dangers involved in voting for a man like Gore, I fear you have already been brainwashed beyond repair. Remember, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

 

[michaelg]

Okay, I'm back for another volley.... Battler, I appreciate your points. I think we can all agree that politicians, as part of their job description and what we force them to do to retain their jobs or advance, will twist and turn in the winds of rhetoric. Gore is not perfect, far from it. But even McCain had to apoligize for not being truthful in expressing his views on the confederate flag in South Carolina (don't worry, I won't go there). The Great Elian Adventure, as you point out, was an interesting example. I wanted to spit every time I heard the "Great Unwashed Media" mention the story. It seemed as though everyone blew a gasket on that minor story. But it's kind of wierd now, sort of like the Bizzaro World. All those "America, Love It or Leave It" hard-hat types from back in the Nixon years and those who supported any invasion of a small vacation island that Ronald "Asleep At The Wheel" Reagan wanted to pursue went nuts when a Democratic administration went in to enforce the Constitution we all scream about. Amazing what personal rights violations an administration can get away with when the guy at the head of the food chain is a Republican, isn't it?! Gore is part of what we've created as part of the quest for public office. Those applying for the right to "serve the public" are expected now to cross "the principal line" from time to time. It's become a matter of "how much" now, not "if". Now THAT'S a shame. Battler, I agree with your assessment of the "right to life" or own property. Too bad our gun lobby isn't as strong as the tobbacco lobby. Look what they got away with for so many years... and their product literally killed people! I want to stress that I don't diminish the issue of the right to bear arms. It's a damn important issue. And I'll work like hell to keep the government from damaging that right. I'm a minority among my Gore friends. But if I'm willing to stick my neck out in this chat room filled with gun owners, imagine how loud my voice is when I'm in the midst of all those gun control Democrats! And I don't care if it's over a keyboard or a beer or a speaker's podium. Don't worry, my friend. No one's going to be handing over their guns during a Gore Administration, least of all me! Now Monkeyleg, you're a different story. Now you're digging up some story about Gore having bodyguards in Nam!? And you are actually using that fantasy to compare to Dubya's silver spoon frat boy service in the National Guard? Whoo-boy, you're reachin'! Now, I'll be the last one to say ole Al has never changed his position on some major issues. Some to a position I don't agree with. But it's a matter of choices, or lack thereof. If it's Bush and Gore, it's Gore. Sorry to dissapoint you, but my postings are serious as a snake bite. There won't be any cliff-jumping, not even my top step. Gore's not the perfect guy to move into the White House. But we don't have one out there. Let me give you an example: You want to hire a Vice President of Operations for your company--you have two resumes--one guy has all the experience of a day shift production supervisor, the other has been an AVP of Operations. After the interviews, you don't agree with all the senior guy's stands on operations issues. But the other guy has never done much and only has run a single line production shift. He talks loud, but has shown nothing on the shop floor. And he's advanced because his daddy was the owner of the company. Who are you going to hire? You figure maybe you can educate the new VPO when it comes to some of the issues you don't agree with him on. All I'm saying is hire the guy with the resume that says he can do the job. Let's work with him to increase our influence. Monkeyleg, wake up and smell the coffee. The Repubs are putting the wrong guy up to the plate. Let's make it their mistake, not ours.

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"I love to do things that scare me, for without fear there is no courage."

 

[fubsy]

Michaelg, this is rich.....would you explain to me what qualifies algore? Exactly what has he done? What issues does he understand better than bush and what is his position on them....like guns...hey lets start there..lol..but by all means please enlighten me on those other broader issues.... Lets see you claim that bush wouldnt be a canidate except for his name, obviously you think algore would have been a senator even if his father, (senator gore, you know the one that algore said was big in the civil rights movement--but wasnt his father against the civil rights movement? Does algore's repeated lies bother you at all? I lived in Tenn. for a while bout, 14years, I met people who knew al/tipper when he worked for the tennessean. The "talk" is that he didnt volunteer for vietnam, he went to canada and daddy brought him home....of course I personally dont know this, anymore than the rumors that were spread about w by his enemies...lol...You claim algores has experience as a leader yet you hope to persuade his opinions, well it is true he does change opinion alot but we need better than the "creator" or the internet, the subject for "love story", the man who while living almost entirely in washington dc, has planted, succered and harvested tobacco,and used that doublebit ax to clear land in his home town of Carthage, tn.,,,as you've already stated he can be swayed, heck he has admitted that he cant be trusted unless there is a "legal controlling authority" although Im sure the monks didnt sway him to any opinion on china or illegal campaign contribution, especially if there was ice T being served......As far as how you defend the 2nd against your algore friends, great, I defend the 2nd against algore's friends too....I cant imagine anyone unless there are a died in the wool democrat voting for this man, more party oriented than country.....by his own admissions, we know that algore is a liar, someone you cant trust, if the republicans ran a "yellow dog" it would be better than algore...If I had my druthers I would pick someone other than bush, but its more important to me to thwart the damage the clintons/gore presidency have done to our govt and its institutions.....fubsy.

 

[weegee]

Can you spell troll? It's spelled m_i_c_h_a_e_l_g...

I notice, Michael, that you're from Austin, 'the Berkeley of the South'...that would pretty much explain your views.

 

[Munro Williams]

Owlgore's qualification is that he's an ideologically preoccupied radical chosen because he's sick and ultimately will reduce us all to state property to "save the planet."

Read "Earth in the Balance." He's crazier than flying s---

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ALARM! ALARM! CIVILIZATION IS IN PERIL! THE BARBARIANS HAVE TAKEN THE GATES!

 

[Battler]

Like Michaelg, I live in Austin, too (although I'm from Australia, I know plenty about socialism). Still, if one is to invalidate one's opinion due to who he is, that is one of the fallacies (wish I still had the list) - we fall into that trap we start basically sounding like Gore.

Michaelg - I've seen shades of it in your posts, and figured out - your mention of "evil big business" and "evil big tobacco" - not that there's anything wrong with it - but you don't sound like a libertarian.

I like the "in the pocket of big business". I am sickened also by contributions of big business to govt. process. Sickened largely that they have to do it to survive.

The government should protect private people from the initiation of force. In socialism, the government initates such force to redistribute wealth. In doing so, they bypass "the will of the people" and pay off politicians to not rape their businesses at the will of people who want a cut of the profits and/or to see certain sectors socialized.

Likewise, Tobacco. Sorry, from the moment you took the first puff and coughed you knew damned well the things were bad for you - you keep smoking and it's your own fault. Yet the govt. has and is turning on them for not being "politically correct".

Now, there's also businesses bribing politicians to use taxpayer money to buy their services. Now this is bad. REAL bad - but the problem here is that the govt. should not be buying stuff in the first place. Also, these abuses, and the companies behind them, are far fewer than the above - what most people want for businesses is for them to be taxed (unconstitutional and wrong) more, even though they use "pork" abuses as examples because they don't want to admit they're socialists.

Remember, everyone - the right to own $2 comes from the right to own $1.


Battler.

 

[michaelg]

Weegee, you bothered to even spend the time posting a reply to call me a name? I can tell you're a real cerebral kinda guy. And to put down Austin? That ain't nothin', my friend. I'm originally from Noo Yawk City! That socialist den of iniquity, where we blow away muggers on the subways! What little names do you have now? Don't spit at me too much, now, you're getting some on yourself. I can't tell you how much I admire a guy with your witty, thoughtful responses.

As for Fubsy, I don't have the time tonight to go into Gore's record (do I hear applause?), but I'll get to it tomorrow. I don't disagree that postions have changed on several issues. But you exagerate simply because you don't like Democrats. I don't dislike Repubs, but they should remember their roots as the Party of Lincoln and get off this ideological extremism. There are moderates in both parties that would make great leaders. But the Repubs should take a lesson from the Dems of the early '70's, when McGovern was the party leader. They sank like a rock because there were too many left-wing extremists controlling the steering wheel. Now the Repubs are making the same mistake, only on the other end of the spectrum. Munro--describing Al Gore as "an ideologically preoccupied radical chosen because he's sick" is a bit far afield--you enjoying the atmosphere on Neptune? Everyone in this chat room is ideologically preoccupied, and we're radical about our nearest and dearest issues.

Battler, my fellow Austinite, you enjoying the "Berkeley of the South"? Hook 'em Horns! I agree that the government should protect it's citizenry from intrusive force. I'm not a Libertarian, just a Populist. I see Ron Paul as one of those crack-pots in Congress. We agree on the role of government, I believe, but there is also a need to protect the citizenry from another form of intrusive force, that of the ability of big business interests to unduly influence consumers to injure themselves. A corporation must be held accountable for proactively manufacturing and distributing--expecially to children--addictive, poisonous substances. True enough, it's the individual's choice to light up, but they must be held accountable for proactively influencing the public to ingest this poison. How many years did they spend denying the poison and refusing to even print warnings? Well, that's a whole 'nother subject.

The bottom line is our political system reflects what we demand it to reflect. And it needs to be fixed. The good thing about most of us in this chat room is that we're thinking--remember, I said most of us here--we may not all agree, but we're thinking. And that's way ahead of many people who wind up casting their votes in November. And that's what most political machines prefer we DON'T do! They want us to live on sound bites. Let's keep on mixing it up here, because it causes us to THINK. It's what makes us different than most! Even you, Weegee....

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"I love to do things that scare me, for without fear there is no courage."

 

[Battler]

Sorry; but this "businesses exert force by making people want to buy their stuff" line is utterly bankrupt.

It's like the "patient's/travellers bill of rights" garbage that give 'rights'. Soon we'll have the 'right to health care' and the 'right to have x dollars' which is really denying someone their true freedom/rights (robbing Peter to pay Paul).

Assaulting businesses where people have the choice (you even have the choice to not buy Microsoft despite what the "govt" and socialists have told you) - reprehensible.

I think we can see eye to eye, though.

If you think that people have too much individual freedom, if you think the government should be a shepherd and the people sheep, if you find the thought of individual responsibility repugnant,

Gore is a better candidate than Bush.


Battler.

 

[Spectre]

Michealg,

In a nutshell: dude, you're a liberal. It was already against the law to sell tobacco to kids. Your comments about targeting kids are silly. The government cannot be our momma and daddy- as if we would want them to. Individual self-interest, taken to the logical extension of family, culture, and species, is the best guarantor of appropriate action...and, if you can't see that, no amount of theoretical "knowledge" will help you.

 

[Coinneach]

108K. If someone feels the need to continue the ORIGINAL topic, go ahead.