No...I take two magazines to the shooting range which I only use for that reason..My other three magazines I keep full and used for defense only which they have been for thirteen years...Like they say what wears out a spring is the use of you using it, not keeping it full....
Will keeping a fully loaded mag REALLY wear out the spring?
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Spats McGee
Administrator
Dagnibbit, I'm a lawyer, not an engineer! 
Here's my question. I don't leave mags loaded for years on end. I go out and shoot, often using the same magazines that I carry. After all, I want to know if the magazines are working properly, too, right? Whether it's leaving them loaded, or compression/decompression that wears them out, this doesn't sound like a problem that's going to crop up all at once "Surprise!," now is it? Wouldn't there be some indication over the course of several range trips that something isn't right? FTF, maybe?
Here's my question. I don't leave mags loaded for years on end. I go out and shoot, often using the same magazines that I carry. After all, I want to know if the magazines are working properly, too, right? Whether it's leaving them loaded, or compression/decompression that wears them out, this doesn't sound like a problem that's going to crop up all at once "Surprise!," now is it? Wouldn't there be some indication over the course of several range trips that something isn't right? FTF, maybe?
Walt Sherrill
New member
Kevin_D77 said:
Interesting that you ignore the first sentence, which says "all materials," while focusing on the second -- which emphasizes high temperatures and resulting SIGNIFICANT viscoelastic effects. It also says that in some applications, even a small viscoelastic response can be significant, and that doesn't seem limited to the effects of high temperature.
Please note: nobody has been been talking about extremes or the effects of high temperature-induced viscoelastic effects. We're talking about the more mundane effects of spring behavior when springs are pushed to or beyond their elastic limits. High temperature is not required.
You also seem intent upon making this discussion personal, attacking my lack of engineering credentials rather addressing the points I make. That may seem effective to you, but I'd rather see you offer evidence that the things I (and others) have written are wrong. You haven't really done that. If what I've written here is wrong, I'd like to know it -- as I want to learn, too. Instead, you seem intent upon arguing from authority in hopes that your professional credentials rather than presentations of evidence or data will make your case for you.
Can you tell us how the training and education of a Structural Engineer differs from that of an Metallurgist? As I understand it, a metallurgist is someone concerned with the physical and chemical behavior of metals and alloys.
The metallurgist who participated in the prior discussion on this topic offered responses similar to mine, and confirmed the points made by danez7. As have others, here, in this discussion. For some reason, you didn't take the metallurgist or danez71 to task for their lack of understanding even though their arguments were essentially the same as mine (albeit better presented). Both of them disagreed with you.
Make your case and offer your evidence or facts.
.
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The two reports indicate that it CAN happen, the others indicate that it doesn't happen all the time.
The problem is that people assume that because it hasn't happened to them, or because it doesn't happen all the time that it CAN'T happen.
Which proves ONLY that it doesn't happen every time. It does absolutely nothing to prove that it CAN'T happen.
Clearly it can, and it does. It doesn't take too long to find cases where it has happened.
It just doesn't happen all that frequently and it almost never happens with decent quality single-column mags.
And you probably never will if you get to pick what is meant by "properly designed".
However, it certainly is true that constant compression can wear out high quality springs in real-world products and here is the proof.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/7953...you+keep+your+springer+cocked-+Here's+a+test-
Note that all the springs tested lost power from being left compressed and they lost more power the longer they were compressed.
Tom Gaylord, noted airgun expert performed a similar test with similar results that he published in his excellent book on the Beeman R1.
Spring-piston airgunsmiths and makers have to know about springs to make living. They'll all tell you to minimize the time the gun is left cocked to prevent the spring from weakening while at the same time pointing out that shooting (compressing and releasing the spring) is much less damaging to the power & life of the spring.
Getting back to firearms, here's a case where an armorer responsible for a large number of pistols over a couple of decades tells what his experience has been.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14901585&postcount=162
The assumption is that all designers who use springs insure that all the stated limitations are met and all manufacturers manufacture springs correctly.
The fact is that sometimes a designer may find it ADVANTAGEOUS to design a magazine spring (or a spring-piston airgun spring) so that it doesn't meet those requirements. And, of course, there's no guarantee that all the springs we buy are manufactured properly.
You (and Douglas Wright) are correct that it's possible to manufacture springs that won't fail/weaken from being left compressed. HOWEVER, in some cases the designer chooses not to design the springs as a normal wear item to be replaced at regular intervals. Why would they do that?
Because it helps keep weight down, it pushes mag capacity up a little and it makes loading the magazine easier (a spring made of smaller diameter spring stock is lighter, means more room for cartridges and is easier to compress). In spring piston airguns, it maximizes power while minimizing weight, size and cocking effort. In both cases, the spring lasts a very long time if used properly and is typically not expensive (or at least in the case of magazines) difficult to replace.
Even if one refuses to accept the idea that their definition of "properly designed" isn't universal, it's still clear that not all springs are manufactured properly. For that reason, even if for no other, it's unwise to spread the idea that springs can't weaken from being left compressed. Clearly anything manufactured can be improperly manufactured and when that happens, all bets are off.
Does this mean that all magazine springs will weaken if the magazine is left loaded? No--but it absolutely does mean that some magazine springs CAN weaken from being left compressed for long periods.
Because too many people assume that if something doesn't happen often and/or hasn't happened to them that is proof that it can't happen at all. And that belief is reinforced by people who understand the theory behind springs but who haven't fully thought through the implications of all the practicalities involved with spring design and manufacture.
Anyone who needs their semi-automatic self-defense handgun to work 100% of the time should care.
It's not a common issue--nobody is claiming otherwise. However, it's important to understand that the fact that it's an uncommon problem is not evidence that it's a trivial problem.
Anyone who has a gun for self-defense is preparing for a relatively low-probability event. We don't prepare because we think it's highly likely that we'll need a gun for protection but because we aren't willing to accept the potentially negative outcome of being attacked and not being prepared. In the same way, mag spring failure is important not because it's common but because the potential repercussions of having a mag spring fail at an "inopportune" time could be severe.
The fact that springs are cheap and easy to replace would make it all the more tragic if someone were to have their gun fail in a self-defense encounter because they had been convinced it's impossible for mag springs to weaken if left loaded when they could have, had they been properly informed, detected the problem early and then repaired it cheaply and easily.
I liken this general issue to the topic of "spring kits" that are sold as DIY trigger jobs. For the majority of people, they work just fine and provide an improvement in the trigger pull. But in some cases, they can result in an unreliable firearm. To my knowledge, a spring kit problem has reared its ugly head only once in a self-defense encounter, so it's obviously pretty rare for it to be a factor in a deadly force situation. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't a pretty serious problem for the defender who found that his self-defense gun wouldn't fire every time he pulled the trigger.
So should we ignore the issue because it's not common? I don't see it that way. When I see someone talking about a spring kit, I always chime in and let the person know that they need to thoroughly test their modified gun in both SA and DA fire using their chosen self-defense ammunition before they rely on it for self-defense. Not because I think it's common for spring kits to render guns unreliable but because I know it CAN be an issue and therefore it's worth spreading the word.
Dragline45
New member
How about this. Keeping a mag fully loaded for an extended period of time will usually not weaken the spring to failure, but it certainly does weaken the spring to some extent, and there is no disputing this. In certain circumstances, but not usually the case, keeping a mag fully loaded can sometimes cause failures in a gun, usually failure for the slide to lock back when empty, or failure to feed.
Now the solution to everyone's problems, drumroll please...... BUY EXTRA MAG SPRINGS. They cost next to nothing, and if you are really worried about your mag springs wearing out from being kept loaded switch them out once a year and you are good to go. I sometimes switch mine out pre-maturely, usually every 2 years and sometimes 3, but I also keep the old mag springs as spares as there is nothing wrong with them.
Now the solution to everyone's problems, drumroll please...... BUY EXTRA MAG SPRINGS. They cost next to nothing, and if you are really worried about your mag springs wearing out from being kept loaded switch them out once a year and you are good to go. I sometimes switch mine out pre-maturely, usually every 2 years and sometimes 3, but I also keep the old mag springs as spares as there is nothing wrong with them.
I know it's going to look like I'm arguing both sides of the aisle on this, but I think your summation overstates the issue.
It's certainly true, as Kevin_d77 points out, that it's possible to design a magazine/magazine spring combination that won't weaken from being left compressed. So we can't go so far as to say that "it certainly does weaken the spring to some extent". Depending on the magazine design it may or it may not.
What we can say is that magazine springs may weaken from being left loaded for long periods. Basically that it's an issue we should be aware of even though it's not extremely likely we'll have to deal with it.
Given the low cost of mag springs and the ease of replacement, a preventive replacement program like yours is reasonable, however, I'm a little cheaper than you are, I guess. I check mine regularly and replace them when/if I note a problem. If I were to find that I'm having regular failures of a particular type of magazine then I would either adopt a regular preventive replacement plan for those particular mags or start underloading those mags by a round or two.
It turns out that it's the last little bit of compression that's hardest on the springs and you can often "fix" a design issue by insuring that the mag spring doesn't get compressed all the way to the maximum that the magazine design allows. Beretta even alludes to this in a roundabout fashion in their 92/96 series pistol owners manual.
"LOADING TO MAXIMUM PISTOL CAPACITY: During normal chamber loading, as described above, the pistol contains one round in the chamber plus 14 rounds in the magazine. This is an advantage because the magazine spring is not fully compressed but under about the same tension as a 15-round loaded spare magazine."
In other words, they're letting the owner know that the extra compression created by inserting a fully loaded mag with the slide forward isn't really all that great for the spring.
Dragline45
New member
I am just going by whenever I switch out a mag spring and compare it to a new one it is noticeably shorter. Also I noticed it is easier to load a magazine with well used springs than one with brand new ones. Kind of like how the recoil spring on a brand new pistol can be very stiff until the gun gets shot a bit. Now keep in mind I have designated range mags and mags that just sit loaded at the house, even the ones that don't get shot much are still shorter than a brand new mag spring. Now do I believe they get weakened enough to cause a problem, no, I just think of it as breaking them in.
Now I am not against keeping mags fully loaded at all times. I personally have never experienced a failure from doing so. I will be the first one to admit that switching out the mag springs as frequently as I do is a little unnecessary, about every 2-3 years, but it's a small price to pay for peace of mind. By the way I function test all the mags that get new springs before anyone says it.
While I completely agree with you, certain mags I would not be worried about loading to the max. Those being single stack mags, and magazines for guns like the Beretta M9/92 or Hi-power. Although they are hi-capacity mags, those magazines could certainly fit a few more rounds and are not loaded to max capacity. I was told the the 18rd Beretta mecgar mags use the same spring as the 15rd mags, with that being said I am not really worried about keeping it topped off at 15.
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Bill DeShivs
New member
What if your replacement springs are bad?
ALL springs shorten initially with use. This does not mean they are bad.
ALL springs shorten initially with use. This does not mean they are bad.
Walt Sherrill
New member
As Bill notes above, all coil springs will take a "set" soon after they are first installed and put to work. Put a brand new recoil spring in a gun, and a week later, with any use, you'll find it somewhat shorter. The spring's ability to function properly will not have changed much at all, however. The folks who design springs understand this behavior, and take it into consideration when designing a coil spring for a given application.
The problem arises -- it's not a COMMON problem, but it does happen -- when a spring no longer has the ability to do the work required of it. In mag springs this is often seen when a round nose-dives as the slide starts to push it up the feed ramp. In recoil springs, this may lead to the spring not having enough stored force to close the slide and chamber the next round. A weakened recoil spring, while still functioning properly in other respects, could also allow the spent cartridge to be sent flying a much-greater distance than was once the case -- a real irritation for those who reload.
The problem arises -- it's not a COMMON problem, but it does happen -- when a spring no longer has the ability to do the work required of it. In mag springs this is often seen when a round nose-dives as the slide starts to push it up the feed ramp. In recoil springs, this may lead to the spring not having enough stored force to close the slide and chamber the next round. A weakened recoil spring, while still functioning properly in other respects, could also allow the spent cartridge to be sent flying a much-greater distance than was once the case -- a real irritation for those who reload.
Dragline45
New member
Bill DeShivs said:
Notice what I said in my previous post
Dragline45 said:
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Bill DeShivs said:
Walt Sherrill said:
Once again, notice what I said in my previous post
Dragline45 said:
I never once said that those shorter springs mean that they are no good or enough to cause a problem, I even went as far to say that I save the springs because there is nothing wrong with them and I switch them out prematurely. What I said is the spring gets weakened to some extent, however small of a change it is. There is absolutely no denying that a brand new spring has a bit more strength to it than a spring that has been used if even for a few weeks, however miniscule of a change it may be. Once again, I do not believe that compromises the function of the spring at all. If I am wrong, then I must be imagining that it is harder to load a mag with brand spanking new mag springs than ones that have set. Or it is harder to rack the slide on a gun with a brand new recoil spring than one that has set.
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One anecdote isn't data, but I'll share a story. In June 1991 I was tasked with bringing automatic weapons from our demob site to our local armory, so I armed my detail with M16s. 30-round GI magazines from the period.
Once we got the guns home and they were properly secured in the armory, I dropped that magazine in my duffel and headed home. I unloaded the duffel, and threw it in the back of the closet.
Fast forward to 2011. I was digging around and found that loaded magazine in the bottom of that duffel bag. So, the next time I went to the range, I loaded that magazine. It fired just fine. That spring had no problems at all. I'm still using that magazine and I can tell you from my personal experience that loading a GI magazine and leaving it loaded for 20 years didn't hurt it a bit.
Like many of you, I change springs regularly. I keep a couple of Wilson spring kits on hand for the 1911 magazines. It's a good idea, but keeping one magazine loaded for 20 years didn't hurt it one bit.
Once we got the guns home and they were properly secured in the armory, I dropped that magazine in my duffel and headed home. I unloaded the duffel, and threw it in the back of the closet.
Fast forward to 2011. I was digging around and found that loaded magazine in the bottom of that duffel bag. So, the next time I went to the range, I loaded that magazine. It fired just fine. That spring had no problems at all. I'm still using that magazine and I can tell you from my personal experience that loading a GI magazine and leaving it loaded for 20 years didn't hurt it a bit.
Like many of you, I change springs regularly. I keep a couple of Wilson spring kits on hand for the 1911 magazines. It's a good idea, but keeping one magazine loaded for 20 years didn't hurt it one bit.
S&W M&P magazine springs....
On a lark, I checked the Wolff Gunsprings website to see if they stock extra M&P .45acp 8rd pistol mag springs. They do not.
I cleaned & inspected my new S&W Military and Police .45acp Compact a few weeks ago & wasn't real impressed with the QC of the metal magazine springs.
I might replace them later just to be safe.
The 9x19mm M&P full size pistol I bought in 2011 did not have the same issues with the 17rd mag springs.
Clyde
On a lark, I checked the Wolff Gunsprings website to see if they stock extra M&P .45acp 8rd pistol mag springs. They do not.
I cleaned & inspected my new S&W Military and Police .45acp Compact a few weeks ago & wasn't real impressed with the QC of the metal magazine springs.
I might replace them later just to be safe.
The 9x19mm M&P full size pistol I bought in 2011 did not have the same issues with the 17rd mag springs.
Clyde
Bill DeShivs
New member
How, exactly does one visually gauge the quality control of springs?
rust, oxidation....
The one M&P magazine spring, which was NIB, looked slightly rusted & had a red-brown color on it.
The mags need broken in but I'd rather replace the minor part then have it fail in a gunfight.
The only type I've seen on the web fit full size .45acp M&P magazines too.
The main S&W website was out for most of today.
The one M&P magazine spring, which was NIB, looked slightly rusted & had a red-brown color on it.
The mags need broken in but I'd rather replace the minor part then have it fail in a gunfight.
The only type I've seen on the web fit full size .45acp M&P magazines too.
The main S&W website was out for most of today.
I always left one round out of a 19/23 magazine to preserve spring tension; magazine article long ago about how the last round really increased the force on the spring.
Due to the comments I had seen on other threads like this, I went ahead and put that last round in the magazine. One month later, the spring was noticeably weaker when compared to a new magazine spring.
I'm going back to leaving one out on 19/23 magazines, as the spring seems to retain its force better that way.
On 26/27 magazines they are getting fully loaded.
The fully loaded magazine springs removed from Glock 19/23 magazines and 26/27 mags had both compressed or "taken a set" and were the same length, which was considerably shorter than a new spring, but the shorter magazine of the 26/27 allowed the spring to have more force than the taller 19/23 magazines.
I replace magazine springs that feel weak, have low tolerance for weak mag springs.
Due to the comments I had seen on other threads like this, I went ahead and put that last round in the magazine. One month later, the spring was noticeably weaker when compared to a new magazine spring.
I'm going back to leaving one out on 19/23 magazines, as the spring seems to retain its force better that way.
On 26/27 magazines they are getting fully loaded.
The fully loaded magazine springs removed from Glock 19/23 magazines and 26/27 mags had both compressed or "taken a set" and were the same length, which was considerably shorter than a new spring, but the shorter magazine of the 26/27 allowed the spring to have more force than the taller 19/23 magazines.
I replace magazine springs that feel weak, have low tolerance for weak mag springs.