Why we are in Iraq

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mikejonestkd

New member
Warren Buffet is a financial genuis...

oh, wait, wrong Buffet.

Never mind. :eek:

I'm going back to the rifles forum where I belong...
 

Freedom_1st

Multiply registered, multiply banned troll.
Bull.

WildcanyoutellmewhyclassAlaska

Well for starters, the american people are already revolting against the neo-conservative vision for world empire.

The republican got pawned in the 2006 congressional races and any republican with a clue is attempting to distance themselves from Bush and the Iraq war.

The army for your fantasy empire would require a draft, something that is complete political suicide.

Not to mention the enourmous cost of creating and maintaining this empire.

Canada has roughly the same standard of living as us and does not partake in crazy imperalistic adventures. Why not do what they do, you know, trade with people.

Every large scale attempt at empire has been soundly rejected by the american people, Vietnamn mean anything to you?

You are on the wrong side of history here.
 

Rob308

New member
We went to Iraq for a number of reasons.

I believe the main reason we went was to defend the petrodollar system. Oil is only traded in US dollars and Saddam had said he wanted Euros for his oil, we went to Iraq to stop him. This system is the reason we can have so much debt without worrying about hyperinflation. The problem is that this plan has failed, now Russia and Iran are saying that they want to use a "basket of currencies" to buy oil. If they go through with this plan the US economy will be in serious trouble..

“If one day the world’s largest oil producers demanded euros for their barrels, it would be the financial equivalent of a nuclear strike” - Bill O’ Grady, A.G. Edwards

Read more about the petrodollar here:
http://www.321energy.com/editorials/willie/willie042107.html

Also, world oil production will peak in a number (1-30) of years. That means that oil will start to run out. Demand keeps growing, but supply will start to decrease. Saudi Arabia (the country with the largest oil reserves) is already friendly to us, but Iraq (second place) was not. Oil doesn't just power cars, it is used for making almost everything. Oil (and other fossil fuels) are what feeds our economy and if we can't get to them... we are in great danger.

http://www.dieoff.org/page145.htm
 

Freedom_1st

Multiply registered, multiply banned troll.
This isnt a "neocon" thing...its national survival.

but it is the neoconservatives that are pushing this agenda right now and "national survival", give me a break oil prices were better before the invasion

as if the USA would have ceased to exist if we did not invade! Lions, Tigers, and Bears!

Ha. Imperialsim? That is made up concept for the geopolitically unsophisticated and non critical thinkers.

Yes imperalism: the forceful extension of a nation's authority by territorial gain or by the establishment of economic and/or political dominance over other nations.

Yes the entire concept of imperialism is just a communist plot designed to weaken the USA! :rolleyes:

It isnt imperialism. It's national survival. Our national interest in remaining a free and economically viable country entails the Arabs selling us and Japan oil. Any attempt to cut off that supply or threat to that supply is an act of war

Um, yeah, the attitude that if other countries do not sell us oil so we can drive monster SUV's under the threat war, is an imperalist attitude.

I've watched two bit terrorists for thirty years. Terrorists are PROXIES for our enemies. Our enemy is and has been for the past 20 years or so, Iran.

No, Al-queda is a sunni militant organization, Iran is Shia, what is your point here again?

How simplistic. We aren't "plundering" anyhting. We are ensuring our fair share to maintain our lifestyle. We pay for what we take.

Really? How about the fact that after the invasion we tried to sell Iraqi oil on fourty year leases.

Under Order #39 Iraq will be locked in to its contracts under these rules for 40 years, with an option of unlimited renewal. If the contracts are broken, the Order gives the companies the legal authority to enact any international trade agreement of which both countries are party. If the Bush Administration is successful in implementing its trade goals outlined below, the U.S. will have a Bilateral Investment Treaty (BIT) with Iraq. The BIT provides access to courts such as the World Bank's International Centre for the Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID), a venue notorious for its undemocratic, untransparent and unjust proceedings and rulings on behalf of multinational corporations.

http://www.ifg.org/analysis/globalization/IraqTestimony.html

If fact I believe it this wonderful piece of legislation that go al Sadr all stirred up.

The war in Iraq, bumbling as it is, is part of that. If you don't realize that you need to study history and geopolitics more.

PotKettle_small.jpg


If you complain about the war in Iraq, or make noises about the conspiracy to attack iran that's your right. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Keep in mind that your very presence on this forum is due to OIL. No OIL...no nothing. If you don't want to support a fight for it, don't use it.

Are you kidding me? How is it that other countries such as Canada, Germany, Japan, etc all have high standards of living without resorting to invading other countries to do it?

Its called international trade. I mean as you pointed out earlier, even Chavez will sell us oil.

Well you are certaintly entitle to your opinions and I am mine, if you want to vote for a person who supports imperialism that is certainly your perogitive, but I will not.
 

Wildalaska

Moderator
Well for starters, the american people are already revolting against the neo-conservative vision for world empire.

No the American people are starting to "revolt" from what they don't understand ....no one has explained it to them.

And this crap about neocon "world empires" is nothing more than childish tinfoil sloganeering.

The army for your fantasy empire would require a draft, something that is complete political suicide.

And? So lets approach the "fantasy empire"...tell me..do you like things like toilet paper, IPODS and fresh vegetables?

Oil.

You like riding in your SUV rather than walking?

Oil.

So here is the choice. Fight for it or give it up. If you can't see the difference between empire (and quite frankly I question your knowledge of what an "empire" really is) and national survival you are either blind or not thinking.

Canada has roughly the same standard of living as us and does not partake in crazy imperalistic adventures. Why not do what they do, you know, trade with people.

With all due respect to the guys up north, canada in the international arena has as much relevance as Rhode island. They are not a player, economically or militarily and surely don't use as much oil as we do (and they could probably support their own needs with what they can pump themselves, unlike us).

Every large scale attempt at empire has been soundly rejected by the american people, Vietnamn mean anything to you?

Yeah Vietnam does. And if you see Vietnam as being an attempt to create an "empire" you are living in an alternative reality.

You know what Vietnam means to me in retrospect? The fall of the Soviet regime. Can YOU see the relevance or need I explain to you?

You are on the wrong side of history here.

Only if you think history is not consistent, and if you reject Santayanas axioms.


WildweneedtohavesomelessonshereAlaska
 

Freedom_1st

Multiply registered, multiply banned troll.
No the American people are starting to "revolt" from what they don't understand ....no one has explained it to them.

Right, they are to dumb to know what is in their own best interest and need someone else to tell them what is in their own best interest. :rolleyes:

And this crap about neocon "world empires" is nothing more than childish tinfoil sloganeering
.

You are correct, the correct term would be neoconservative policy of aggressive interventionism.

And? So lets approach the "fantasy empire"...tell me..do you like things like toilet paper, IPODS and fresh vegetables?

Oil.

You like riding in your SUV rather than walking?

Oil.

So here is the choice. Fight for it or give it up. If you can't see the difference between empire (and quite frankly I question your knowledge of what an "empire" really is) and national survival you are either blind or not thinking.

More scare tactics, more lions, tigers, and bears, even if you what you say about access to oil is true, it seriously doubt it would cause the econmic calamity you claim it would.

What better then the a high price of oil to get the innovation engine of capitalism running full speed and develope alternative sources of energy. Sure it might be a bit rough for bit, but I have complete confidence that this country could survive this and come out stronger in the end.

We survived the civil war, british invasions, the great depression and other things, I have complete confidence we could survive a withdrawl from Iraq.

Besides its in their best interest to sell us oil, just like it is Chavez's best interest.

Yeah Vietnam does. And if you see Vietnam as being an attempt to create an "empire" you are living in an alternative reality.

You know what Vietnam means to me in retrospect? The fall of the Soviet regime. Can YOU see the relevance or need I explain to you?

Once again I refer to the defintion of imperialism: Imperialism is the forceful extension of a nation's authority by territorial gain or by the establishment of economic and/or political dominance over other nations.

The soviet regime was a corrupt unworkable system, it would have eventually fell apart on its own with or without the vietnamn war.
 

Pat H

Moderator
Unfortunately, the following quoted material, though somewhat well written, that is to say it has completely sentences and demonstrates linear thinking, it is well and truly based on no factual information of any kind that I can detect.
We went into Iraq because it was the most logical target.

The September 11 atrocity was planned and financed by bin laden and al qaeda. Their money and people came mainly from Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, with the Afghan government (the taliban) being the most overtly anti-American and belligerent. Afghanistan also gave aid and shelter to the mastermind, bin laden. For this reason alone, they became target number one.

The pentagon knew that Afghanistan was too distant a target to make a truly effective demonstration of their new resolve against terror, so another target had to be chosen. The country that deserved it most was Saudi Arabia, but since they have been a "friend" of the U.S. for so long, there was no way we would attack them. Besides, I am sure that they have bankrolled a large portion of our activities in Iraq - trading money and oil for us to not invade them...

Though I don't buy into the War for Oil propaganda, if you are going to choose a country to attack, you should choose one that makes the most sense. These were the criteria for the countries that were considered for invasion in order of importance:

The country must be mainly islamic and located in the Middle East.
The country must not be too strong militarily or financially.
The country must have mediocre to poor relations with other islamic countries.
The country should have oil.
The country should have a secular government (for ease of transition to democracy).
The country should have a tie-in to terrorism (most of them do...).

It really didn't matter which islamic country we attacked. It was more important that we not back down again like we had under Clinton. We had to make a stong showing in the back yard of the islamic fundamentalists. Their extremist religion knew no national boundaries, so what difference should boundaries make when choosing a nation to invade?

Iraq fit the above criteria best. It had the added advantages of being the other bookend to Iran, having its air space already under de facto U.S. control, and it was still being run by Saddam Hussein who continued to be a burr in the Bush family's saddle.

Even if Iraq had nothing to do with September 11 (and they probably didn't) they were the most logical target for the reasons outlined above. Larger wars have started over less.
Iraq was invaded for the following reasons:
1. The invasion was part of a long term plan by the neo-conservatives, as written about extensively and published on their web site The Project for the New American Century, planning documents that are in some cases written decades prior to the events of 9/11/2001.

2. On behalf of the Likud Party in Israel, the front for the Zionist Movement (it's what they used to call themselves) dating back well before World War Two. Likud is ultra-nationalist in philosophy, well grounded in fascism in practice.

3. For control of mideast oil. This is not to "get the oil" for in fact America buys only about 7% of its oil from mideast sources, it is to get corporate America's hands on the spigot of mideast oil. The two rising industrial powerhouses that will need this oil, India and China, would be brought under more than just a little control were this to succeed. Both of those countries, and others, have more than a small vested interest in seeing the US government fail in Iraq, and the rest of the mideast as well.

4. For the Military-Industrial complex in America. The collapse of the "Evil Empire" shook these industries to their quick, so they immediately began to look for replacement "evil empires" for which to build their weapons systems to fight against. The "War on Terra" was a Godsend for these leeches.

5. The military itself. The US military is significantly smaller than it was when I entered service in the late 1960's, and it was smaller then than it had been in the 1950's era. When the Berlin Wall was torn down, the US government's military was aghast at the prospects of substantial reductions of forces in total, and removal of all or most forces from overseas. The "War on Terra" was the stopper they were looking for.

There are likely other reasons for the invasion of Iraq and the planned invasions or attacks against Iran and Syria; but those I've listed are some of the central reasons.

All are illegitimate and violate the restrictions placed ont he federal government by the Constitution. The constitution is an envelope within which the federal government must remain, at all times, every day, every week, every month; no matter where on the planet the federal government is located.
 

Wildalaska

Moderator
Right, they are to dumb to know what is in their own best interest and need someone else to tell them what is in their own best interes

Nope thats YOUR TAKE...where did I say that?

You are correct, the correct term would be neoconservative policy of aggressive interventionism.

Nope. You fail again with terms like aggressive interventionism. More two bit sloganeering....

More scare tactics, more lions, tigers, and bears, even if you what you say about access to oil is true, it seriously doubt it would cause the econmic calamity you claim it would.


well you are seriously wrong then. Raise the price of gas to European levels and ration it. See how things go. You guys like TEOTWAWKI threads

I daresay that EVERY economist in the United states would agree that a SERIOUS disruption in oil supplies would be a major problem in todays world.

What better then the a high price of oil to get the innovation engine of capitalism running full speed and develope alternative sources of energy. Sure it might be a bit rough for bit, but I have complete confidence that this country could survive this and come out stronger in the end.

Rough for a bit? Gimme a break. Try 19th century.

You want capitalism (which you and your ideological allies seem to like only when it doesnt conflict with your particular weltanshauung) to get the innovation engine rolling...well thats the job for you folks then. Stop buying gas and tell em why. Buy smaller cars. Reject an oil rich lifestyle...

But dont allow some nation to pull the plug on us and bring us to our knees.

The soviet regime was a corrupt unworkable system, it would have eventually fell apart on its own with or without the vietnamn war.


LOL...ok...:rolleyes:

WildtherottingtimbersalwaysneedakickAlaska
 

Wildalaska

Moderator
2. On behalf of the Likud Party in Israel, the front for the Zionist Movement (it's what they used to call themselves) dating back well before World War Two. Likud is ultra-nationalist in philosophy, well grounded in fascism in practice.

Well I knew it wouldn't take long for another one of them to show themselves:cool:

WildshalombubelehletswgodominateacountryAlaska
 

TheBluesMan

Moderator Emeritus
childish tinfoil sloganeering vs. neoconservative aggressive interventionism.

And the winner is... The person who didn't have to read it.

Closed for infringing on the signal to noise ratio.

-Dave
 
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