Why the hypocrisy on handgun capacity?

[brian33x51]

If anything revolvers worst case may be worse. If that indexing pin gets something jammed in it the revolver will never even get a shot off. With a semi auto you'll get at least one shot unless there's an issue with the ammo itself (which would affect both types of guns regardless).

At the moment we have *7* of these double stack micro 9mm options available (that I know of), most of them released in the past few years. Reliability is good except for the occasional lemon and all of them have the best ergos and shootability from combined experience serving the US concealed carry market for multiple generations of pistols.

Someone new to the game should put these first on their list of potential carry pistols. They handle well, have the best capacity available for their size, and the triggers are improved over previous models. I myself waited a few years for prices to start coming down and am finally upgrading myself. I plan to switch from carrying a single stack 9mm and a higher capacity compact pistol over to full time with just a micro 9.

 

[Moonglum]

To each his own I guess. For defense against humans, not bears, I see revolvers squarely taking their rightful place on the mountain of antiquity.
Weight for weight, size for size it's 5 or 6 vs 15 to 19 shots. Reliability may slightly favor the wheel guns, but the modern auto loader is so reliable that "issue" is a non issue.
Does any special forces group in the world use revolvers in combat? Any SWAT teams? Seems like a closed case to me. I have plenty of revolvers. I even carry them on occasion. I do not kid myself and think I have same firepower as when I have Glock 19 or 23.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[reddog81]

Statistically, for a citizen involved self-defense shooting - the odds of encountering/drawing/and then firing more than Six(6) rounds to stop the threat...

... are about 1/6,000.

... or, only about 66% greater than the odds of ending up a Highway Fatality that same year. (1/10,000)

6+1 G36 45 ACP (w/ an extra mag):


Red

That’d be 54,333 times per year people are firing off 6 rounds or more in self defense. Or about 150 times every day. Whoever calculated that statistic was off by at least of few decimal places.

 

[OldMarksman]

Statistically, for a citizen involved self-defense shooting - the odds of encountering/drawing/and then firing more than Six(6) rounds to stop the threat...

... are about 1/6,000.

... or, only about 66% greater than the odds of ending up a Highway Fatality that same year. (1/10,000)

What is it that you are trying to say, and what is your basis for it?

 

[reynolds357]

Statistically, for a citizen involved self-defense shooting - the odds of encountering/drawing/and then firing more than Six(6) rounds to stop the threat...

... are about 1/6,000.

... or, only about 66% greater than the odds of ending up a Highway Fatality that same year. (1/10,000)

6+1 G36 45 ACP (w/ an extra mag):

Red

The way you are representing that statistic is not accurate. There are two separate probabilities. The probability you will be involved in a self defense shooting and the probability you will fire more than six shots. To come up with the most basic statistical model, you multiply the chance a person will fire a weapon in self defense by the chance they will fire it more than 6 times. I don't have factual data for either, but I would bet the chances are close to 1 in 1 million than 1 in 6000.

 

[OldMarksman]

The way you are representing that statistic is not accurate. There are two separate probabilities. The probability you will be involved in a self defense shooting and the probability you will fire more than six shots. To come up with the most basic statistical model, you multiply the chance a person will fire a weapon in self defense by the chance they will fire it more than 6 times. I don't have factual data for either, but I would bet the chances are close to 1 in 1 million than 1 in 6000.

A meaningless calculation.

Should one want to analyze handgun capacities on the basis of statistics, one would calculate the marginal probability--the stats regarding ammunition usage in cases in which shots are actually fired.

You can bet that defenders will require more than six far more often than one in 6000. People are properly trained to shoot until the attack stops.

 

[TunnelRat]

It’s a conditional probability, the probability of firing 6 or more shots given that a person is in a shooting. Look at Bayes’ Theorem:

https://www.mathsisfun.com/data/bayes-theorem.html

I’m kind of amazed this thread is still going.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[OldMarksman]

It’s a conditional probability, the probability of firing 6 or more shots given that a person is in a shooting.

Yes. I misused the word "marginal".

 

[JustJake]

Glock 20 ...

15 rounds of the 10mm AUTO sent high-n-hard COM is enough hurt for any honest Bad Guy.

 

[44 AMP]

and how do you figure it when one or two hits do the job but a dozen are fired before the shooter realizes the job is done?

is there a formula for that??

 

[OldMarksman]

and how do you figure it when one or two hits do the job but a dozen are fired before the shooter realizes the job is done?

is there a formula for that??

 

[OldMarksman]

and how do you figure it when one or two hits do the job but a dozen are fired before the shooter realizes the job is done?

is there a formula for that??

That would represent an extreme that might be very difficult to justify--BUT in a viloent attack it is not at all unlikely thata defender will fire more rounds than the post-incident forensics would indicate to have been necessary. The defender cannot know that in advance. One would count the number fired.

 

[reynolds357]

That would represent an extreme that might be very difficult to justify--BUT in a viloent attack it is not at all unlikely thata defender will fire more rounds than the post-incident forensics would indicate to have been necessary. The defender cannot know that in advance. One would count the number fired.

In all L.E. training I had, I was taught fire until treat no longer existed. That means fire until one element of Means, opportunity, and jeopardy had been removed.

 

[JustJake]

and how do you figure it when one or two hits do the job but a dozen are fired before the shooter realizes the job is done? Is there a formula for that??

Yeah, gramps. ... It’s called: you shoot until the threat is no longer a threat, whether that takes one round or 15+1 rounds. The use of deadly force by gunfire is never neat and simple, and it doesn’t allow for “formulas” as to rounds expended.

A couple of years ago, in a police deadly-force case, SCOTUS even ruled there’s no constitutional duty for cops to “round count” during a shoot-out with bad guys. (Think Alito wrote it).

Whether it’s 6-rds fired or 60-rds fired, it doesn’t matter as long as you’re shooting in justified self-defense. You can fire, and continue firing, until the threat to your life or others is stopped.

In all L.E. training I had, I was taught fire until treat no longer existed. That means fire until one element of Means, opportunity, and jeopardy had been removed.

Correct.

But that also applies to civilian SD shootings in most states with reasonable deadly-force laws. There’s no obligation on the defender to “round count” before he or she can assert “legit” SD, whereas firing one or more rounds further somehow renders the same act manslaughter or murder.

The focus is on termination of the threat, not how many bullets were fired in the process.

 

[44 AMP]

Yeah, gramps. ... It’s called: you shoot until the threat is no longer a threat,..

Sorry, kiddo.. ...you missed the point of my comment. ITs not about how many rounds need be fired to stop the threat, its about counting rounds fired and plugging them into one's pet formulae and making pronouncements and predictions based on they way you're figuring statistics.

Its about counting all rounds fired as round needed, and the real world isn't that simple.

NO, the defender won't necessarily know which round stops the attack, THAT'S not the point. We shoot until we are certain the threat is ended. And that can very well mean someone shooting to slide lock and dumping 13-15 or whatever before the bad guy falls down.

How many of those rounds were misses? How many non vital hits? What if one hit results in the psycological stop and a dozen more rounds get fired before the bad guy runs away or falls down??

These are things we cannot quantify or predict, and I think counting rounds fired skews the statistics and essentially renders them useless.

That's the point my comment was meant to refer to.

Done right, using accurate and appropriate data, statistics can be useful.
Done with the wrong data the results are neither valid nor useful and only confuse the issue.

 

[XDforever]

Well, I EDC a Glock 48 with the 15 round Shield mags, however, I find myself pineing to get a Glock 45 that holds 17. Not just for the two more rounds, but also for the mag compatibility with my Sub 2000 glock mag rifle.

The wife will never give up her Ruger LCP II so I won't be able to share mags with her, but I can't do that now.

Decisions, decisions......

Joe

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Does any special forces group in the world use revolvers in combat? Any SWAT teams? Seems like a closed case to me."

Because everyone knows that Joe Concealed Carry faces situations EXACTLY like what SPEC OPS SWATERATOR TEEM SEEL 6 faces every day...

Right. Jesus.

 

[Rob228]

I had some issues carrying revolvers (642 and a S&W model 40). The 642 froze up on me from repeated exposure to sweat having some kind of reaction with the lithium grease on the internals -I carried it cycling in one of my jersey pockets) and I just could not shoot either of them accurately past 7 yards.

I know there are some people who can shoot a J-frame accurately at 25 yards and if they want to carry a revolver more power to them. I can't so I don't.

 

[Sigkid79]

I have several concealed carry firearms. My favorite and the one I carry the most is one that has the least capacity. It is a Springfield Armory XD-S mod.2 that comes equipped with a 7, 8, or 9 round magazine. I carry mine in 7+1 configuration. Why?….It it the most comfortable and fits my hand the absolute best vs the others. It also shoots the best vs the others. Now if I happen to take a road trip, I’ll bring my Glock 43x with three 10-round magazines. If I take my dog for a walk, I’ll pocket carry my P365. Other than that, its the Springfield.


To each their own, but there is just no way that I’m walking around (especially here in FL where I’m usually in shorts and a T) with a full size 15+ round firearm along with extra mags, etc…. Especially when the odds of you even using your firearm are extremely small. Even in the event you do have to use it, stats show that using more than 3 rounds are also extremely small.

What I’ve found is that most folks who EDC far more firepower than actually needed tend to be those who either:

1. Are eager to find justification to actually use it.
2. Are very paranoid.
3. Have watched John Wick way too many times.

 

[TunnelRat]

Especially when the odds of you even using your firearm are extremely small. Even in the event you do have to use it, stats show that using more than 3 rounds are also extremely small.

What I’ve found is that most folks who EDC far more firepower than actually needed tend to be those who either:

1. Are eager to find justification to actually use it.
2. Are very paranoid.
3. Have watched John Wick way too many times.

So you say the odds of having to use a firearm in the first place are extremely small. And yet only the "folks who EDC far more firepower than actually needed" (the exact figure of what that means apparently being undefined), are very paranoid and the other negative traits you came up with. So conveniently you're not paranoid, but the people not like you are.

This is what I mentioned way back in this thread. These discussions border on pointless. It's one group of people judging another group of people, when a lot of other people would likely regard all of us as crazy for carrying a firearm at all. It's one of the worst traits of this "community".