Why the 1911?
- Thread starter CastleBravo
- Start date
I would not agree that the design of a 1911 can be made intrinsically more accurate than a more modern design. I will agree that it can be made as accurate, and that more time has been spent making the 1911 more accurate and reliable than any other design.
The 1911 has a reputation as a "pro's" gun, which is perpetuated when special tactics teams choose it.
It has puzzled me that so many gun designers have not spent time making a flat design like the 1911.
Configurability of the 1911 has a lot to do with it being around so long. People have had a lot of time to tweak the chassis.
Great trigger though. That is an advantage that other designs don't seem to take time to address.
For the controls, I have found that other designs put everything in easier reach for me, including the Beretta. This is mainly the slide stop. Sure, I could put in an extended slide stop, but I am talking about what I can get out of the box.
The 1911 has a reputation as a "pro's" gun, which is perpetuated when special tactics teams choose it.
It has puzzled me that so many gun designers have not spent time making a flat design like the 1911.
Configurability of the 1911 has a lot to do with it being around so long. People have had a lot of time to tweak the chassis.
Great trigger though. That is an advantage that other designs don't seem to take time to address.
For the controls, I have found that other designs put everything in easier reach for me, including the Beretta. This is mainly the slide stop. Sure, I could put in an extended slide stop, but I am talking about what I can get out of the box.
warhammer357
Moderator
Real purist
I have to agree with the "Trendy" Factor. Fact of the matter is, most hardcore shooters knew of the superiority of the 1911 as far back as the forties. But it was not trendy back then.
When the auto pistol era hit law enforcement (probably more because of Miami Vice than any other factor) suddenly, major law enforcement agencies entered the high tech arms race, not because of any actual shortcoming of the revovler (after all, Didnt agent Morales end the Miami Shoot out with a revolver and a shot gun?).
The FBI and the KSP are good examples of this. The FBI hopped on the auto bandwagon and wanted a 10 mm so new it was not on the market and had Smith butcher a design that was proven just for them. The KSP jumped on that same bandwagon even though the success of the 125 grain JHP .357 was proven by the KSP. New Smith doesn't work, so low and behold FBI goes with Sig, which locks up, then with Glock. KSP sticks with 10 mm, even though Smith no longer makes the gun.
Custom .45 market goes offf big and suddenly FBI swat decides it's custom High Power isn't trendy enough, it has to havea custom .45 too.
As fer me, I'm a real 1911 purist. I don't like any of the current custom "mods". The extended guide rod enterferes with feild stripping. The beavertail grip safety flat out looks silly and interferes with cocking or decocking when needed. Extended thumb safety gets in the way, hollowed out hammer? Oh yeah, just what we all need, a lighter hammer hit on the firing pin when the bad guys attack.....
Novak style sights? Oh yeah, just what I need, a miniature motorcycle ramp on the slide!!!
I do have a Kimber, but I hardly ever use it. Nice gun, accurate and reliable, but I prefer the "mil-spec" look.
My two main carry 1911's are a Randall Service model and a Colt 1991-a1. Occassionally the urge for a "customized" 1911 hits me. But I wonder if I could find a smith who could dig up a spade grip safety instead of a beavertail, King-Tappan sights (which can be used to rack the slide against a table edge) and a commander hammer without the hogged out hole.
I have to agree with the "Trendy" Factor. Fact of the matter is, most hardcore shooters knew of the superiority of the 1911 as far back as the forties. But it was not trendy back then.
When the auto pistol era hit law enforcement (probably more because of Miami Vice than any other factor) suddenly, major law enforcement agencies entered the high tech arms race, not because of any actual shortcoming of the revovler (after all, Didnt agent Morales end the Miami Shoot out with a revolver and a shot gun?).
The FBI and the KSP are good examples of this. The FBI hopped on the auto bandwagon and wanted a 10 mm so new it was not on the market and had Smith butcher a design that was proven just for them. The KSP jumped on that same bandwagon even though the success of the 125 grain JHP .357 was proven by the KSP. New Smith doesn't work, so low and behold FBI goes with Sig, which locks up, then with Glock. KSP sticks with 10 mm, even though Smith no longer makes the gun.
Custom .45 market goes offf big and suddenly FBI swat decides it's custom High Power isn't trendy enough, it has to havea custom .45 too.
As fer me, I'm a real 1911 purist. I don't like any of the current custom "mods". The extended guide rod enterferes with feild stripping. The beavertail grip safety flat out looks silly and interferes with cocking or decocking when needed. Extended thumb safety gets in the way, hollowed out hammer? Oh yeah, just what we all need, a lighter hammer hit on the firing pin when the bad guys attack.....
Novak style sights? Oh yeah, just what I need, a miniature motorcycle ramp on the slide!!!
I do have a Kimber, but I hardly ever use it. Nice gun, accurate and reliable, but I prefer the "mil-spec" look.
My two main carry 1911's are a Randall Service model and a Colt 1991-a1. Occassionally the urge for a "customized" 1911 hits me. But I wonder if I could find a smith who could dig up a spade grip safety instead of a beavertail, King-Tappan sights (which can be used to rack the slide against a table edge) and a commander hammer without the hogged out hole.
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
CastleBravo-
Good thread, but I do wonder who it is that convinced you that you must have A $1500 1911 just to be competitive with a USP?
I have an early Series 80 Government, an M1991A1 late mfg, and a 1991A1 Compact which my wife loves. The early series 80 has aftermarket sights-a high Colt front and a Pachmyer adjustable rear, and a Videcki aluminum trigger. The 1991A1 wears a Kings long steel trigger and a McCormick trigger. The Compact I modified for my wife with a Kings upswept beavertail and Kings barrel bushing and recoil spring/guide. None of these pistols came to more than $500 with modifications, and they cycle any reasonable handload you can feed it. I know I'm not alone in this, either.
There are many fine weapon systems out there, and a handfull of them are outstanding. I rate the 1911 as one of the outstanding ones. There are certainly other worthy designs out there, and they do it differently, but they don't do it any better.
The 1911 seems to be more popular now than when the Government issued them, probably due to competitive sports,
The people I have come to know in my work and in my life who have asked me to help them learn how to shoot have chosen the 1911 over revolvers and DA autoloaders for the comfort and shootability of the design, not knowing one thing about firearms or their history. I found that interesting.
Simply put-the 1911 is very nicely balanced, more concealable than any other full sized autoloader that I can think of, easy to maintain, parts everywhere, and easy to shoot.
Good thread, but I do wonder who it is that convinced you that you must have A $1500 1911 just to be competitive with a USP?
I have an early Series 80 Government, an M1991A1 late mfg, and a 1991A1 Compact which my wife loves. The early series 80 has aftermarket sights-a high Colt front and a Pachmyer adjustable rear, and a Videcki aluminum trigger. The 1991A1 wears a Kings long steel trigger and a McCormick trigger. The Compact I modified for my wife with a Kings upswept beavertail and Kings barrel bushing and recoil spring/guide. None of these pistols came to more than $500 with modifications, and they cycle any reasonable handload you can feed it. I know I'm not alone in this, either.
There are many fine weapon systems out there, and a handfull of them are outstanding. I rate the 1911 as one of the outstanding ones. There are certainly other worthy designs out there, and they do it differently, but they don't do it any better.
The 1911 seems to be more popular now than when the Government issued them, probably due to competitive sports,
The people I have come to know in my work and in my life who have asked me to help them learn how to shoot have chosen the 1911 over revolvers and DA autoloaders for the comfort and shootability of the design, not knowing one thing about firearms or their history. I found that interesting.
Simply put-the 1911 is very nicely balanced, more concealable than any other full sized autoloader that I can think of, easy to maintain, parts everywhere, and easy to shoot.
MuzzleBlast
New member
Why?.....Because we like them.
Tamara - Sweet rack!
Tamara - Sweet rack!
I think we are on the same page here Tim. Like I said, there are reasons why the Grand Masters and other imitated folks are having success with the 1911. Its the same reason why hardcore enthusiast like use TFL members find favor with it. But you have to admit that the general gun buying public isnt like most of us TFL memebers. The reasons why the 1911 has lasted this long are numerous and real...the reason $2000 1911's are selling like hotcakes to people who dont know a .38 super from a .38 Special is trend and status.
BTW, I'm also a closet Witness fan. I just love the look on people faces when you outshoot them with a "off-brand throw away gun"
BTW, I'm also a closet Witness fan. I just love the look on people faces when you outshoot them with a "off-brand throw away gun"
Why a 1911?
Some observations:
The Browning 1911 and its derivatives are fundamentally sound; nothing has come on the scene that radically improves them. In fact, virtually all modern op systems are Browning, Improved Browning, or Browning-Petter. I agree with the earlier post that CZ, Sig, H&K, and Glock have produced some evolutionary steps, but no real revolutions.
For many decades, 1911s were just about the ONLY model of semi-auto that a large portion of the American shooting public had any experience with at all. This changed during the 60s-80s; eventually, the hi-cap 9mm craze hit its peak, the US Armed Forces changed to the Beretta, and .38 Spec/+P virtually disappeared from the law enforcement scene. The powers that be (don't think this doesn't include the major domestic manufacturers) decided that foreign hi-caps had to go, so the 1911 has become popular again.
I agree that the 1911 and its derivatives are EXCELLENT pistols. Single-stack, all-steel construction, grip angle, etc. all combine to make a gun that is greater than the sum of its parts.
That said, the 1911A1 is not perfect, at least IMHO. I hate the grip safety, but this can be eliminated. The stock SA trigger of the 1911 is great, but there are stock SA triggers that are comparable or better (older BHPs and CZ 75s come to mind). A lot of the credit given to the 1911 should really go to the .45 ACP cartridge. It is very difficult to find an inaccurate pistol in this caliber.
I own two .45 semi-autos: a CZ 97B and an FEG GKK. The only thing that prevents me from owning a 1911 is the simple fact that EVERYONE I know (that shoots, of course) owns one. I am fairly certain that I will own a Colt Commander-style pistol within the next couple of years.
Some observations:
The Browning 1911 and its derivatives are fundamentally sound; nothing has come on the scene that radically improves them. In fact, virtually all modern op systems are Browning, Improved Browning, or Browning-Petter. I agree with the earlier post that CZ, Sig, H&K, and Glock have produced some evolutionary steps, but no real revolutions.
For many decades, 1911s were just about the ONLY model of semi-auto that a large portion of the American shooting public had any experience with at all. This changed during the 60s-80s; eventually, the hi-cap 9mm craze hit its peak, the US Armed Forces changed to the Beretta, and .38 Spec/+P virtually disappeared from the law enforcement scene. The powers that be (don't think this doesn't include the major domestic manufacturers) decided that foreign hi-caps had to go, so the 1911 has become popular again.
I agree that the 1911 and its derivatives are EXCELLENT pistols. Single-stack, all-steel construction, grip angle, etc. all combine to make a gun that is greater than the sum of its parts.
That said, the 1911A1 is not perfect, at least IMHO. I hate the grip safety, but this can be eliminated. The stock SA trigger of the 1911 is great, but there are stock SA triggers that are comparable or better (older BHPs and CZ 75s come to mind). A lot of the credit given to the 1911 should really go to the .45 ACP cartridge. It is very difficult to find an inaccurate pistol in this caliber.
I own two .45 semi-autos: a CZ 97B and an FEG GKK. The only thing that prevents me from owning a 1911 is the simple fact that EVERYONE I know (that shoots, of course) owns one. I am fairly certain that I will own a Colt Commander-style pistol within the next couple of years.
The 1911 is the small block chevy of the shooting world.
You can do anything with it. want it small? get a 3" barrelled model.
Want it big? They made a long slide too!
Want it in between? Hey they got 4", 4.25", 5" models.
You want a smaller frame for better concealment? they got that.
You want a small frame with a medium barrell? they got that.
You want a double stack large magazine capacity? THEY GOT THAT!
You name it they got it! If they ain't got it, they can make it special for you.
Oh, and it's got what all the other guns aspire to... A history.
When I pick up my favorite one, I am reminded of where this design has been.
The only other guns that compare are like someone else said, the S&W revolvers and (what a coincidence) another Browning design, the Hi Power. The "original" wondernine.
You can do anything with it. want it small? get a 3" barrelled model.
Want it big? They made a long slide too!
Want it in between? Hey they got 4", 4.25", 5" models.
You want a smaller frame for better concealment? they got that.
You want a small frame with a medium barrell? they got that.
You want a double stack large magazine capacity? THEY GOT THAT!
You name it they got it! If they ain't got it, they can make it special for you.
Oh, and it's got what all the other guns aspire to... A history.
When I pick up my favorite one, I am reminded of where this design has been.
The only other guns that compare are like someone else said, the S&W revolvers and (what a coincidence) another Browning design, the Hi Power. The "original" wondernine.
Tamara,
Have you worked those four beauties into boudoir props? Maybe Hugh Hefner might get some ideas???
I used to know a chick who worked for a medium So Cal police department. Not only was she good lookin' and retained her femininity (some say rare for chicks in law enforcement), but she loved Colt .45 Automatics. She carried a full sized one on duty and an Officer's Model off duty. Needless to say, she was well protected.
Adios,
Elvis
Have you worked those four beauties into boudoir props? Maybe Hugh Hefner might get some ideas???
I used to know a chick who worked for a medium So Cal police department. Not only was she good lookin' and retained her femininity (some say rare for chicks in law enforcement), but she loved Colt .45 Automatics. She carried a full sized one on duty and an Officer's Model off duty. Needless to say, she was well protected.
Adios,
Elvis
juliet charley
New member
Probably a little off-topic, but how you guys feel about the new Para-Ordinance LDA designs? --in particular, the D7.45 which is basically a standard 1911 with the LDA trigger.
CastleBravo
New member
Personal opinion:
I tried the LDA trigger and if "real" single-action 1911 triggers didn't exist, I'd say it was pretty good. It really serves no purpose except to make the trigger worse & as a gimmick to make the gun more politically correct. And Para-Ordinance quality seems doubtful to me... mine was a gigantic lemon. :barf:
I tried the LDA trigger and if "real" single-action 1911 triggers didn't exist, I'd say it was pretty good. It really serves no purpose except to make the trigger worse & as a gimmick to make the gun more politically correct. And Para-Ordinance quality seems doubtful to me... mine was a gigantic lemon. :barf:
Country Boy
New member
Why a 1911? DVC
DVC - Diligentia Vis Celeritas - Latin for Accuracy, Power, Speed
http://www.sightm1911.com/191120%Mystique.htm
DVC - Diligentia Vis Celeritas - Latin for Accuracy, Power, Speed
http://www.sightm1911.com/191120%Mystique.htm
juliet charley
New member
CB -
Thanks for the reply. Let me try again and be a little specific. Is it a viable alternative where Condition One carry is forbidden? Is it "catching on"--I've heard rumours of some LE usage/adoptions?
My brother (he "does not like" Condition One carry) has a relatively new stainless steel version through which I've shot a couple of magazines. To me, the trigger pull is far better than any Glock I'ver ever felt (and better than some out-of-the-box 1911s). The reset is kind of long (compared to a 1911). It points, feels and carries like a 1911. The trigger reach is a little long for me (similar to what you would get with an arched MSH and long trigger on a 1911), but it could (I guess) be fixed by a flat MSH. P-O's QC does bother me a bit--it seems you either get a good one or bad one--it's a crap shoot with nothing in between.
FWIW, I'm a "dyed-in-the-wool" 1911 fan. I bought my first one when I was 18--a used Series 70 (without a collet bushing) that would probably be worth four to five times what I paid for it if I still had it.
Thanks for the reply. Let me try again and be a little specific. Is it a viable alternative where Condition One carry is forbidden? Is it "catching on"--I've heard rumours of some LE usage/adoptions?
My brother (he "does not like" Condition One carry) has a relatively new stainless steel version through which I've shot a couple of magazines. To me, the trigger pull is far better than any Glock I'ver ever felt (and better than some out-of-the-box 1911s). The reset is kind of long (compared to a 1911). It points, feels and carries like a 1911. The trigger reach is a little long for me (similar to what you would get with an arched MSH and long trigger on a 1911), but it could (I guess) be fixed by a flat MSH. P-O's QC does bother me a bit--it seems you either get a good one or bad one--it's a crap shoot with nothing in between.
FWIW, I'm a "dyed-in-the-wool" 1911 fan. I bought my first one when I was 18--a used Series 70 (without a collet bushing) that would probably be worth four to five times what I paid for it if I still had it.
CastleBravo
New member
Two issues:
1. If you can't use a real 1911 trigger for whatever reason, the LDA trigger is pretty nice in terms of feel.
2. Are Para-Ordinance products of acceptable quality? In my (very limited) experience, no. Some people have had very good luck with them.
1. If you can't use a real 1911 trigger for whatever reason, the LDA trigger is pretty nice in terms of feel.
2. Are Para-Ordinance products of acceptable quality? In my (very limited) experience, no. Some people have had very good luck with them.