Why the 1911?

CastleBravo

New member
If we can overcome our sentimentality, we might wonder to ourselves why 1911s are still produced. Why buy a 90-year-old design when there are so many more modern alternatives? Perhaps more interestingly, we might ask ourselves why, when people who rely on their handguns get to buy anything they want, they often buy derivatives of the old 1911? Examples include Marine MEUSOC, FBI HRT & SWAT, numerous other SWAT types, Delta, and so on? They can get any modern gun they want, but they don’t. On the surface this is extremely peculiar. Of course, they are really using guns that are only “derived” from the 1911, not identical copies, but you would think that a modern gun designed from the ground up would be better… to put it in perspective, would you race a Model T hot rod against a 2002 Corvette Z06? Are vauge statements about being battle-proven, or cliches of "all fall before hardball," really all that justifies its continued existence?

I think we can agree that the 1911 derived pistol is capable of performing as well or better in terms of accuracy and reliability than any other autopistol design, ASSUMING that it is properly set up with quality components. The corollary to that, however, is that it really isn’t better than its more modern counterparts in this regard, either. In terms of mechanical function, a $1,500 1911 isn’t doing anything that a USP Tactical can’t do just as well for $500 less. So strictly in terms of objective performance, we can’t really justify the 1911’s continued popularity.

However, this overlooks something very important that seems to be routinely ignored by modern handgun designers: human engineering. Although this term almost certainly didn’t exist in 1911, I am going to argue that the 1911 derived pistol continues to thrive precisely because it has better human engineering than more modern handguns. This may sound trivial, but in fact is absolutely vital, for it is proper human engineering that makes it easier to use a handgun to its full potential.

In general, the 1911 has exceptional ergonomics. With its slender, single-stack grip, short trigger reach, high bore axis and comfortable grip angle, it is a gun that suits many people very well. A side effect of the design is that it is very easy to tailor the gun to fit a shooter EXACTLY. Small hands? Use thin grip panels, a flat mainspring housing, and a short trigger and the tiniest hands can use the gun with comfort. For big hands there are wrap-around grips and long triggers. Different beavertail grip safeties offer let you adjust how high a grip on the gun you want, making the gun extremely controllable. Just compare it to the Beretta 92 with its fat grip and long trigger reach and the difference is dramatic.

A central element of the 1911’s continued relevance is its trigger. Its short, consistent single-action pull is simply superior to all of the alternatives if you actually want to be able to shoot with accuracy AND speed. Long DAO triggers slow down your shooting and make precise shooting more difficult; DA/SA triggers have the disadvantages of the DAO for the first shot, and require you to learn how to deal with the cumbersome DA/SA transition for the rest. They are designs bred of bureaucracy, bad training and lawyers. Striker-fired weapons can close the gap, but remain markedly inferior to a SA design in terms of subjective feel. If you want to shoot rapidly AND accurately as easily as possible, a SA trigger is simply the best. To use an (extreme) example, when is the last time you heard of a competition shooter going to a longer, more inconsistent trigger design to improve their accuracy and split times?

The last element I will address is sights. Although the original 1911 sights, to be blunt, stink, it can easily be outfitted with superior high-visibility sights. This does not make it superior to other pistols by design (there are aftermarket sights for just about all of them), but is the capstone to the vital equation:

Ergonomics + Trigger + Sights = Easy to shoot to potential. This is, in essence, why the 1911 design remains relevant: it does these key things better than its modern competitors. Compare the fat, brick-like grips and indifferent triggers of a USP45 or Glock 21 to a decent 1911 and the difference is obvious.

All of which isn’t meant to “prove” that my gun is better than yours, or that the 1911 is the only pistol that matters. Like all designs, it has compromises (mainly low capacity and relatively large size) that you may not be willing to live with. You may like the perceived safety advantage of a longer or heavier trigger. And so on. There is no one-size-fits-all perfect handgun out there. But I think it does go to show that the 1911 design still excels in areas that the latest-and-greatest pistols often cannot match.

Now excuse me while I shoot my cumbersome, double-action S&W 610 revolver. :D
 

Jim Watson

New member
You are right CB.
The high capacity .45 is the answer to a question I did not ask.
If Sig-Sauer would put a thumb safety on a P220 it would be a very good gun, limited only by its rather high bore (I think you meant the 1911 had the advantage of a LOW bore axis.)
If H&K would make a single-stack version of the USP and equip it with their Match trigger, they would have another very good gun, limited only by the width of its slide.
If Glock produced a .45 with the slide and magazine width of the 36, but the barrel and butt length of the original 17, they could join the ranks of the 1911 fighters, limited only by their tricky trigger.
Each of these guns would still lack something a 1911 has but they would bring in enough advantages of modern engineering to compensate. Every year we see the 1911 get perverted by substitute materials and add-on gimmicks the basic design does not handle well. I have nothing against modern, but give me something I can use as well as the old stuff.
 

STEVE M

New member
I agree with your assesment of the 1911 'style' pistol. My question is this; have we ever made a leap forward in handgun design or only made different handguns.
If we agree that a handgun's main purpose is for close range personal defence, then have we truly improved the breed. Colt took up a quantum leap forward with the practical revolver; metallic cartriges took us another great step forward. John Browning (and others i.e. Luger, Borchardt et. al.) gave use the ergonomic single action semi-auto pistol. Where have we gone since then? Has our ability to defend ourselves improved (due to hardware) since Browning?
 

Scott Evans

Staff Alumnus
In short … “it does what it always did”.

Add to that near a century to reflect upon its qualities; or the same to discover a weakness, and one becomes able to minimize elements that may be in question elsewhere.

Confidence … in a level of performance sufficient to the task.
 

StuporDave

New member
I use a 1911 because I'm comfortable with it and shoot it well. Haven't seen anything else that's interested me enough to re-learn another gun. Nothing wrong with other guns, just nothing wrong with the 1911 either. To each his own.

Dave
 

cochise

New member
Just what I was thinking

CB......You said it better than I. Good post. I was just thinking the same thing today, putting my 1911 in the "drawer". I carry it everwhere, since my colt revolver was stolen. I am very comfortable with that old 1911 relic.:)
 

RickB

New member
CB and Jim pretty much covered it.
Were going to have to wait for an advancement on the self-contained metallic cartridge, before we'll see the 1911 put out to pasture.
Comparing the 1911 to more modern gun designs as analogous to a Model T/Vette, is inherently flawed. Auto technology has advanced in leaps and bounds since the early part of the 20th century, but gun technology has not.
 

M1911

New member
You answered your own question. I own Glocks, HKs, Sigs, Brownings, a CZ, etc. As soon as someone shows me a pistol that fits as many hands as the 1911 and has as good a trigger, I'll buy it and start carrying it. Until then, I'll keep carrying my 1911s.

M1911
 

warhammer357

Moderator
Why? Evolution

If you will notice, there are TWO handgun designs that have only changed cosmetically over the past century, the 1911 semi-auto and the DA S&W wheelgun. There is a reason.
These two designs were the pinnacle of firearms evolution. Look at the diversity back when they both arrived on the scene. You had a variety of action types and styles that were far more diverse than today. These two just outdid the rest of the pack.
The revolver evolved as the best personal self defense weapon in the home. The 1911 the best offensive handgun on the battlefield. As such, they are STILL unequalled for their given uses.
Why do I routinley pack a 1911?
Because it is flatter, more compact and better balanced than the Smith 645 I used to carry, a little lighter and just as powerful. It is also far more accurate. It is easier to carry, easier to conceal, easier to shoot well with and FLATTER!
That is why I choose it ....
There comes a certain point in weapons Evolution that Revolution is uneeded.
 

9mmepiphany

New member
when i started in LE they mandated that we carry a revolver so i had my python (my choice for the pinnacle of development), but still carried my commander off duty. i've sway with the tides but keep coming back to the 1911 (in various flavors) because it just felt "right", however...

my tuned sig 220 comes very close to that comfort level and was superior to the rest of the field, out of the box, until the advent of the kimber line. it has the ergonomics, the trigger and the sights. what it gives up to my last 1911 was to ability to easily adapt to hand sizes (trigger, MSH, stocks) because of the wrap around stocks (lacking a MSH) i believe you would have to spend >$1k to have a 1911 that substantualy improves on the 220

now, just another point for reflection, calibre aside (can we agree that there have been quantum leaps from the days of "ball ammo"?)...

i would consider both the roller-delayed and gas -retarded actions of the hk p9s and p7 at least an evolution, if not a revolution, in the field. the p7 has outstanding accuraccy, reliability and ergonomics combined into a smaller package with the inherent safety of the squeeze cocker
:cool:
 

Rickmeister

New member
Ugh! Shades of Immanuel Kant.

Sorry, Castle, I just had to throw that in. :)

I really don't care that much about the classical, time-honored attributes of the 1911, or the technological virtues of more modern guns. Like many, I own several of them---1911 and otherwise. Like many others still, I carry whatever "feels" better.

I am 5' 9", or what by American standards is called a midget. 200 lbs, or what by American standards is considered overweight...for my build anyway. And finally, from wrist to tip-of-the-middle-finger, my hands measure 7 1/2 inches. What I find easier and more comfortable to carry---and what I'd probably do better with in an all-out gun battle if it ever came to that---is my K40 or CZ-75D PCR, not my 1911.

Someday I'll frame my 1911 in gold, but not likely because it saved my life or won me a stellar performance at the IPSC. Although one never knows; in my case, it would probably be more of a freak accident.

Thus, don't pigeonhole a man and his gun until you've walked a mile in his chaps. The bottom line being: let everyone choose the "best" gun in the world. You know...the "one" that I've got. :D
 

MH

New member
John Browning was a genius who got it right the first time. I wish more guns had such a great thumb safety. Best trigger feel, fastest trigger reset. Proven effective caliber, that also happens to be low pressure and relatively low noise. I bought a stainless Kimber for $679 and have added 0 dollars. It has a great trigger, is accurate, and so far, totaly reliable. I just bought a new Colt Commander blued with rosewood grips. $549, I will add a drop in beavertail, I pulled the series 80 plumbing. Total cost, $575, accurate, reliable. Can't agree that you need to spend >$1000 to have a great 1911.
Flat, it conceals well. Limitless amount of accessories to suit the owners need. I have owned them all, nothing else comes close.
 

blades67

New member
:rolleyes: Get over youself. Modern design does not equate to better design. If it did you'd be talking about your Colt 2000 All American.:barf:
 

Carbon_15

New member
I hate to say it, but a LARGE portion of the extream swell in the 1911's popularity has alot to do with status. Popularity begets popularity. Unfortunatly much of the gun buying public wants to use what the top competators and elite agencys use, presumably in the hopes that it will make them cooler or even better shots. no mater if it was Brogan, Wingtips, or Reebok pumps, we all went through a 'be like the cool kids' phase. Some of us never grew out of it. Before I get flamed, please note that my idea says nothing as to why the top competators and elite agencys use the 1911, only why it is so popular with the general gun buying public right now. IF 90% of IPSC grand masters were using Witness Gold Teams, the sales of $1k+ supertuned 1911's would drop overnight. But like I said, there is a reason those imitated folks choose the 1911 design. There are plenty of hard core thinking shooters who would still love the 1911 for its excelent ergonomics, accuracy and power, but many would just want to be like the cool kids. Anyone else notice that when there was a beretta 92 in almost every action movie and police holster, it was all you heard the gun shop commandos and mall ninjas talking about?
Personaly, I am one of the rare 1911 purists who prefers the sleek, classy looks of a stock 1911A1 over the tricked out status guns. Nothing makes me want to puke more than front cocking serations and a flat mainspring housing on a 1911...it just destroys the lines. I may go as far as an extended slide stop, and bevertail for practical reasons, but anything else (for my intended use and in my opinion) is ugly and futile. I still cant figure out why so many non-ambidextrious people just HAVE to have an ambi. safety:D
 

blades67

New member
I still cant figure out why so many non-ambidextrious people just HAVE to have an ambi. safety

Because one day you may not be able to use your right hand when you need to use that 1911.:rolleyes:
 

WESHOOT2

New member
UH, REALITY CHECK

If IPSC Grandmasters WON with Witness Gold Teams we'd (or you, I have three Witnesses) be using them, but since ALL of them STILL win using 1911's I guess that line of reasoning is hooey.

If there was a 'more modern' gun that SO MANY shooters found WORKED FOR THEM we'd be using that (Glock has come close, but a big portion of its users are mandated....$).

I sold my (only) Glock, cause I didn't like it (and I really tried, and spent tons o'money trying to keep it), I use my three Witnesses pretty regular (thank you Col. Cooper), but I seem to shoot my 1911 (Caspian, of course) better.
I kinda like it, but I like my 9x19 Witness more.
I shoot my 9x19 Witness kinda good, but I shoot my 1911 better.

Guess which gun I wore on "Millennium Day", or 9/12?

No really, guess............
 

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Tamara

Moderator Emeritus
Warhammer357,

Because it is flatter, ... than the Smith 645 I used to carry,

Must be a skinny 1911. Every 1911 in this house is actually thicker than my roomie's 1066. Who knew? (Caught both of us off guard.)
 
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