Why no BHP design in .45 ACP.....yet?

[IanS]

If as J.M. Browning claims the BHP is the refinement of his 1911 design why hasn't anyone made a BHP type pattern in .45 ACP? Of course the grip should be moderately sized (10 rounds) or even left as a single stack. If a company like Colt came out with something like this wouldn't this be a pistol with some sizeable potential and built in momentum?

I know I'd want one. Of course keeping the design graceful (in the spirit of John Moses Browning) in today's ungainly and decidely UN-graceful time like today may be the hardest challenge.

 

[IanS]

I believe I saw something like this in the 80's by a smaller firearms company but lacked the R&D and resources to pull it off succesfully.

 

[stans]

The Hungarian firm FEG produced a gun that looked like a oversized BHP with a Smith & Wesson style slide mounted safety that was chambered in 45 ACP. I have never stripped one, so I don't know what the internal parts look like or how close it is to the BHP design.

 

[denfoote]

Why muck up a perfectly good design/caliber combination with something that is so, so, so, 1911ish!!!!

 

[MrAcheson]

The reason the BHP is not available in .45acp is size. In order to shoot .45 out of a 9mm you have to change the frame geometry too much to accommodate the larger cartridge.

Its not like a conversion to .40 where you can simply beef up all the 9mm structures to accommodate the higher loads of the larger cartridge. Essentially with a .40 you are building an extra-stout 9mm. I believe if you try to go from 9mm to .45 you usually have to change the grip geometry and the slide geometry and the frame geometry. So the gun wouldn't look or feel like a BHP (or whatever gun) anymore if you made it in .45.

 

[caz223]

It would prolly look a lot like a CZ97.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have always wondered about the frequent statement that "J.M. Browning claims the BHP is the refinement of his 1911 design."

The history I read pointed out that when Mr. Browning designed the gun that eventually became the BHP, he had two objectives in mind:
1. Give FN a gun to offer the French, and
2. Work around the 1911 patents which were still in force and exclusively licensed to Colt.

The French didn't buy any of the several versions they were offered, and when Dieudonne Saieve at FN finally got a gun to market after Browning's death, he had put some 1911 features back in after the patents expired. Things as simple but crucial as keying the takedown to the slide stop; and a barrel bushing (which the BHP has, it is just permanently installed.)

The big differences the BHP kept from early prototypes were the cam locking system that saved the loose pieces of the link and its pin but has not been either stronger or more accurate; and the overhead sear bar which dodges the magazine well and keeps the grip narrow over the double column magazine that Mr. Browning did not like but FN insisted on. It also acts as disconnector. But it introduces a good deal of monkey motion into the trigger linkage and costs in terms of trigger travel and reset. Neither of which is very important to an army, but is apparent to private owners. Many people appreciate its lack of a grip safety, but that is not a "refinement" over the 1911 it is just that the US Army wanted a grip safety and the French and Belgians did not. At any rate, I can handle a grip safety better than I can the magazine disconnector the Europeans like.

The BHP's greatest advantage to me is not exactly a refinement, it is just that it was designed and built as a 9mm from the start and is a smaller gun than a 1911; very light for a steel service pistol at two pounds. But if Colt had stayed with the 9.8 mm Colt they were offering in Europe before the 1911 was adopted, or if FN had thought the 9.65mm Gran Browning worth doing, I think I would prefer one of them.

 

[Pampers]

There are Two

A while back, Springfield (I believe) marketed a 1911 like design by Peter Schull(?) of Germany. It was available in multiple calibers a conversions. It featured a linkless lock up system, and double exterior extractors. I don';t know if anyone is still importing it.

The other is the S&W 945, which has a linkless lock up system which allows the barrel to be mounted about 1/4" lower, relative th the frame, than a 1911. This makes for much reduced muzzle flip under recoil. It's available from the S&W Performance Center.

 

[jar]

FEG, STAR and CZ make a 45acp HiPower like pistol

 

[Erich]

Don't forget that "Brigadier" thing the Canucks cobbled together in the '50s . . . as I recall, it took a .45 Super-esque cartridge.

 

[Gomez]

First: It has been done, by a Canadian company, back in the early 50s. I beleive it was called a Brigidier, which was somewhat confusing since Berretta was still marketing their old M951 as the Berretta Brigadier (precursor to the M92-series). It was a big, chunky Hi-Power looking thing chamber in, as i recall, a proprietary .45 Super-type cartridge. I think it could fire standard .45ACP, but I'm not sure.

Second: JMB did not "design" the BHP. Heresy, I know, but it's true. JMB developed the bushingless front end, the barrel lockup and, possibly the trigger assy. The double column mag design, and the frame, were done by an FN designer.

There was a pretty neat gun designed and manufactured in Brazil that incorporated the Hi-Power style trigger into the M1911 design. The Ballester-Molina, know by it's fans as the "Ballbreaker Ballerina".

And it looks like Para-Ord porducts are becoming more Hi-Power-ish with each passing season. (Hi-Caps, springloaded extractors)

EDITED because I am terrible with numbers. 80/50/915/951

 

[Onslaught]

You mean this?

 

[BigG]

...J.M. Browning claims the BHP is the refinement of his 1911 design...

I am unaware the Moses ever expressed the thought contained under this premise.

John Browning was a contractor interested in selling designs to buyers of weapons. First, he had a long association with Winchester for long guns and Colt for handguns and automatic weapons.

He later branched out to selling direct to the world's militaries, inlcuding the US Army with his machineguns and automatic rifle. The pistol that became the 1911 was a Colt offering that Browning had happened to design and sold to Colt.

The GP, Gran Puissance, P35, or High Power was an attempt to gain a French contract for an updated automatic pistol. Browning in the 1920s had to circumvent his own patents held by Colt to build a pistol that worked and would meet contract specs. The original GP was striker fired, also. JMB died in 1926, so he never saw the P35 accepted and mass produced. It is a B-I-G stretch to assume that he considered this an improvement sans any documentation. It is, however, an understandable vanity on the part of highpower owners to think that JMB must have thought he was making an improvement on the Colt 45 Auto.

I can't remember but assume the original design caliber was not 9mm which was German but 7.65mm French Long which was the cartridge the WWI US Pedersen device was chambered for. A warm 32 ACP, if you will.

 

[Jim Watson]

I agree in general, BigG, with a couple reservations.
Mr. Browning worked in collaboration with Colt to produce the 1911, he and they were hotly pursuing the Army contract together and had been for at least 7 years. He spent time at the Colt factory working with their design and production people. So I don't think the 1911 was a routine commercial development even from his viewpoint. As you say, he later offered his military designs direct to the Army. His bio points out that he never offered the US Army a design that they did not accept. True, the post-war 37mm was not deployed, but they bought it.

I am pretty sure the early ancestors of the BHP were always in 9mm. The French would not buy the Gran Rendellement (I think that was the Froggie term.) maybe it cost too much, maybe they had the Not Invented Here syndrome, maybe it kicked too much more than the 8mm '92 and the .32 ACPs they were used to. They then went to Petter who used Browning lockup and his own packaged lockwork. The lockwork is now famous as the operating system of the Sig P210. [I wonder where Tokarev came in on that. Parallel development or who copied whom?]

Adoption of the 7.65 Longue, based on the .30 Pedersen, is a total mystery to me. They could have had the 9mm with no fuss. But it was German. Reason enough, I guess. They could have just stayed with the .32 ACP, they had lots of French and Spanish guns left over from the war. Maybe a 8mm rimless, same bore as the '92 and the Lebel? Maybe a 7.5mm pistol round, same bore as the MAS that was coming in? I dunno.

 

[BigG]

Thanks, Jim, for filling in a couple details. I am in no way an expert on Moses, just an enthusiast going on years of reading anything I could get my hands on about JMB. I would like to read his bio. I am just guessing about the French Longue but I know everything they bought up until the big 15 shot 9mm was in that unique caliber.

One of the best sources for JMB info is Handguns/Small Arms of the World by Ezell (two books with similar titles).

These books cover the development of most all important small arms by country since about 1870 and provide many interesting nuggets of info. I highly recommend both for any enthusiast's library.

I suppose I will have to make the pilgrimage to John Browning's museum on a well-needed vacation. Where is it? Ogden Utah, St. Louis?

 

[Gomez]

Well, my skull was itching after my earlier post and here is the end result:

The Canadian made .45-ish Hi-Power was manufactured by NAACO, starting in the 1950s. It was chambered for a unique cartridge, .45 NAACO. It was fed by an 8 round magazine. It looks like they only made one (single, no more) of these things. And they used aluminum for the slide and the frame! As I recall, the cartridge was supposed to be the old standbye 230gr projectile at some ridiculous velocity (1100F/S or more, I think).

 

[Erik]

I want a dimensionally correct single stack HP in .45acp.

I imagine I'm not the only one.

But... Until a businessman not only imagines like I do but proves it to himself and others, I can only imagine.

 

[SteveC]

You could try...

As something to think about, the CZ compact line of pistols in 9mm and .40 has a grip frame that is almost identical to the BHP in terms of shape and size. I had my BHP and CZ PCR size by side, and the frames were almost identical in terms of the grip and size. And as I mentioned alsewhere, a CZ Compact with Hakans feels just like my BHP with Spegels.

The Tanfoglios/Witnesses compacts should be the same as the CZ compacts.

There is an EAA Witness compact in .45 that holds 8 rounds in the mag, and (according to the specs) that has identical dimensions to the 9mm compacts. With the proper grips, the grip should feel just like the BHP and point just like it as well.

Having mentioned that, I'm really curious if the "long slide" and other replacement top ends for the full sized EAA Witnesses would work on the compact .45 steel frame? If they did, you could get a 10mm, .38super or .45acp pistol that has the same ergonomics as the BHP. Of course, it would be an EAA, and not an FN.

Dang...I'm _really_ curious now!!! I could concievably shoot everything from .22 to 10mm without screwing around with all different kinds of grips, triggers and manuals of arms - and stick with my favorite BHP style ergonomics!

Too bad I'd have to be real lucky to find a Witness .45 compact in CA.

Steve

 

[Jim Watson]

BigG,
The French went to 9mm with the MAC 50 single stack design. Looks like a big 35s. I gather from Mullins that it was the standard issue and the MAB P15 high cap was for some elite outfits and gendarmes who needed more shots than the FBI-trained Claudio Saissa's favorite revolvers.

My copy of Small Arms of the World is old enough to show W.H.B. Smith as author and Joseph Smith as update editor. Handguns of the World by Ezell shows a 7.65 Longue BHP prototype, with packaged lockwork a la Petter to try to get the French interested again. But that wasn't until 1936 and the real BHP was selling and the French were going with the 35S and A.

I got most of my John M. Browning background from his bio and BHP info from a specialty book on the model.

 

[BigG]

Thanks Jim. I've got the older version, or did, too. Still got the WHB Smith Walther book that was incorporated into HGOTW.

Very interesting. I'm not really a BHP fan (like Colt 45 Auto) but read Moses himself claimed the Superposed was his crowning achievement. What a career he had! I wonder if he applied himself to other fields?