Why magnums for the LOWER 48, when even in AK Fish & Game say 30-06 enough?

[Bob Willman]

I fail to understand why anyone, whether a government agency or individual, feels that they have the authority to suggest or dictate what another person needs or does not need. What I need or want is my choice and mine alone.

Whether firearms, automobiles, food or hair styles, makes no difference.

Bob
WB8NQW

 

[Willie Lowman]

Range.

Years ago my grandpa switched from .243 to .308 Norma mag because the Norma offered bullets 50 grains heavier at the same velocity. So he was able to make shots at 300 yards more effective.

 

[44 AMP]

I fail to understand why anyone, whether a government agency or individual, feels that they have the authority to suggest or dictate what another person needs or does not need. What I need or want is my choice and mine alone.

Whether firearms, automobiles, food or hair styles, makes no difference.

I won't speak to individuals making recommendations, but in the case of a govt agency having the authority to suggest or dictate, we, the people, have GIVEN them that under the authority of law.

When engaging in certain activities in the public domain, the govt has the legal right to require what you need to comply with the law. This is applicable to all kinds of things, from firearms to automobiles. Food has been regulated in some places, though to date I am unaware of them doing it with hairstyles...

Once you get off of your own property, if you don't follow their rules, you're violating the law. You may feel that all you may "need" to hunt moose is a .22LR. The govt disagrees and so you can't do it, legally.

My state has a seatbelt law. I can drive my car all day on my property without wearing a seatbelt, and they don't care. BUT, when I drive my car on public roads, then its "click it or ticket".

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I fail to understand why anyone, whether a government agency or individual, feels that they have the authority to suggest or dictate what another person needs or does not need. What I need or want is my choice and mine alone.

Wait, what? You are on a gun forum where people make suggestions all the time and you are taking offense by suggestions being made? Haven't YOU made suggestions on this very forum? With what authority did you take such action?????

Since when do you need authority to offer helpful information? Do you get mad at a waiter when he suggests a given dish is a particularly good choice?

No authority needed anywhere to make suggestions and the government agency in question wasn't dictating anything. What you think you need or want may be your choice and the government agency involved isn't doing a single thing to take away that choice, were they? Nope. They were simply offering information to help provide visitors to their state that would help make their experience more enjoyable and potentially safer.

The points made in the article are not invalid. People often show up to hunt Alaska in far poorer shape than what the hunting calls for and often bring more rifle than they can handle effectively.

 

[Dranrab]

It's the bullet and the placement much more than the headstamp that matters. My experience an the experience of so many more people is that too many people buy a "magnum" thinking that the headstamp matters more than the bullet and placement. Too many never invest the time in mastering their chosen chambering. A simple truism is the lighter the recoil, the more accurate the shooter. That is the point that AK Game and Fish is making.

I'd happily and confidently hunt anything in any of the 50 states with a 30-06. I am certain my chances of putting the bullet where it needed to go would be greater and the bullet would do its job when I put it there.

Of course this is the internet where nobody is recoil sensitive and everyone can shoot their 404 Jeffery as accurately as they can a 223, but at the range and in the field it doesn't play out that way.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

I gave up magnums a long time ago----mainly got tired of getting beat up--not to mention the rifles are generally heavier and larger(24in barrels) and that barrel life will be less.

My largest gun is a .30-06(no slouch in the recoil dept either) but it hardly gets used because my .270 rifle is a good pound or so lighter.

I could be agued that you would be more effective with a gun you shoot better but I say buy and shoot what you want---if a magnum is for you, then go for it.

 

[Paul B.]

Well, the good Col. Townsend Whelen did once say, "The 30-06 is never a mistake."

I guess the real answer depends on where and what one is hunting. Over the many years I've use the 30-30, 30-06 and later the.308 but have gone to a .300 Win. Mag. for a couple of hunts. One of the areas in Arizona where I hunt elk require shots that are way out yonder. I did three hunts in that area, ft with a 30-06 and the last two with the .300 magnum. Finally had success on the third hunt. The shot was at a lasered 530 yards. Most of what little elk hunting I've done has been with the 30-06, but mostly with a .35 Whelen. That seems to be my lucky elk caliber.
Frankly, I would hunt anything in the lower 48 with my 30-06 and never look back although lately I've been doing a lot of work with a 7x57 that thinks it's a 7-08 and a slight bit more. Recoil is more than tolerable and frankly, being in the third year of my 8th decade, recoil just ain't much fun anymore. I can still do the bigger guns including the magnums it's not the fun it used to be. I might do a der hunt if I can snag a tag but the odds are poor. I might try for a ranch hunt for a cow elk if my outfitter has an opening. Just have to wait and see.
Paul B.

 

[stagpanther]

I'm only into my 6th decade Paul B and you're an inspiration to me, if I had an elk tag I'd gladly give it to you.

 

[jmr40]

People often mistakenly believe that magnum cartridges kill game better. If you're talking about the magnums smaller than the 375 no. The 7mm, 30, and 33 caliber magnums don't kill anything any deader than the same calibers from non magnum cartridges. They just do it at longer ranges.

Most bullets perform best at impact speeds from about 1800 fps to about 2800 fps. If they impact too fast they often over expand and don't penetrate enough, too slow and they often don't expand at all and act like a FMJ.

The idea behind the small and medium caliber magnums is to start them faster so they fall below that 1800 fps threshold farther downrange. They also shoot a little flatter.

The problem is that most non-magnums will retain 1800 fps farther downrange than most shooters have the skills to shoot. And with the advent of reasonably priced range finders and modern scopes that can compensate for bullet drop a flat shooting gun isn't nearly as important as it used to be.

And then there are the modern high BC bullets. If you take an old school 180 gr RN bullet and launch it from a 300 WM at 3000 fps and compare it to a modern 180 gr bullet fired from a 30-06 at 2800 fps; the 30-06 will be faster at only 75 yards. If you shoot the same modern 180 gr bullet from a 308 at 2600 fps it will be impacting faster than the old school bullet from a 300 WM at 175 yards.

All of those things combined really make most magnums un necessary. Now when you get to magnums 375 and up they do have a place, but only for the largest game. There are only 4-5 game animals on the planet where you can justify guns that big. And most of can't afford to hunt them.

 

[RKG]

Unless you are Carlos Hathcock, one-shot knockdown capacity is a probabilistic phenomenon. Your shot will be wide of perfect, and by how much varies. For any given shot error, the bigger gun will do better than the smaller one.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Your shot will be wide of perfect, and by how much varies. For any given shot error, the bigger gun will do better than the smaller one.

I often make this same argument, but from the other end of the spectrum. The smaller and less powerful your caliber, the more precise your shot needs to be. Nobody likes to talk about the fact that bigger and more powerful calibers truly can compensate (to a certain extent) for poorer shooting. Bigger and more powerful calibers tend to do more tissue damage overall which increases the potential for the damaged tissue to include vital structures that might otherwise might have been missed by an equally less precise shot with smaller and less powerful caliber. Bigger and more powerful calibers will often promote a greater amount of bleeding out as a result of the increased amount of tissue damage.

However, where people go wrong, as indicated elsewhere in the thread, is opting to go with bigger and more powerful calibers to offset their lack of abilities or experience and that is not the right way to address that issue at all. Larger and more powerful calibers will often cover for slightly errant good shots, but not so much for blatantly bad shots.

One of the downsides of hunting with too much caliber is that as a meat hunter, it is still important to pick and choose your shot quite wisely because of the amount of tissue destruction. You can destroy a lot more good meat with a larger and more powerful caliber than with a smaller and less powerful caliber.

 

[Shadow9mm]

One of the downsides of hunting with too much caliber is that as a meat hunter, it is still important to pick and choose your shot quite wisely because of the amount of tissue destruction. You can destroy a lot more good meat with a larger and more powerful caliber than with a smaller and less powerful caliber.

Very true. Friend of mine had a TC Encore rifle, 18in barrel in 500 S&W mag, years back. First year he had it he loaded it up with 275g Barnes hollow points. Really wanted to anchor the deer. Well, he shot 2 deer with it. Both dropped in their tracks, instant lights out. First one was a perfect side shot. Bullet went in behind the shoulder and opened with such force it pushed all the blood to the far side of the deer and bruised the entire far shoulder. Second deer was a quartering towards shot and he put it in the chest diagonal through the body. exploded the internal organs and made a huge mess with over pressure. He never used them again. Switched to wide flat nose cast lead, I think he said 340g.... Still dropped them in their tracks, minimal meat loss.

Moral of the story, you need an appropriate caliber, and bullet for the game you want to take.

P.S. that rifle had the special recoil reduction stock, it kicked worse than a 12ga 3" magnum turkey load.....

 

[Scorch]

Does a magnum do something in the lower 48 than the 30-06 does not?

There are many variables when hunting, including visibility (vegetation, weather, etc), range, and game types. Magnum cartridges do not negate any of these variables. If it's raining (or snowing, or dust storm, whatever) a magnum cannot do hit a target you cannot clearly see. And a magnum cartridge only has a slightly longer effective range than a standard cartridge like the 30-06. Perhaps a magnum cartridge can kill larger game better, but I am not really convinced of that.

In your question, you said 10,000 rounds through the rifle. That would make the shooter an "experienced" shooter, IMO.

So it comes down to this: a magnum shoots flatter, making range estimation less critical at farther ranges. With laser range finders currently selling for relatively low prices, and assuming a shooters used a laser range finder, I would say there is nothing a magnum rifle can do that a 30-06 cannot do. What you are trying to do is make a curved line (trajectory of the bullet) coincide with a straight line (line of sight), and if you have a trajectory chart (dope chart) on your rifle you can make the meeting happen.

 

[Nanuk]

I will go a step further. If defense is the game, or short range hunting a carbine in 44 magnum or 45 Colt properly loaded will work.

 

[JustJake]

Well, the good Col. Townsend Whelen did once say, "The 30-06 is never a mistake."

Col. Whelen said a lot of things ...

He's also credited with having invented "the poor man's magnum" - the .35 Whelen, which is a .30-06 necked-up to .35-cal (.358).

It's for those times and situations where it would be a "mistake" to use a .30-06.

 

[44 AMP]

Col. Whelen said a lot of things ...

including a comment about "the only reason the whitetail deer population exists today is the semibuckhorn rear sight" (or words to that effect). His point was (he felt) that rear sight was very poor, and resulted in a lot of misses...

This was something he wrote in the early 50s. Whelen was very right about some things and not so right about others.

 

[old roper]

James Howe developed 35 Whelen.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=who+created+35+Whelen

 

[Pathfinder45]

If you can only afford one rifle that must be counted on from varmints to Moose and large bears, the 30-'06 is a good compromise. It's probably perfect for Elk, and it can do the job on everything else when it must. But this is not 1933 and most of us have at least a couple of options to choose from for the job at hand.

 

[dahermit]

If you can only afford one rifle that must be counted on from varmints to Moose and large bears, the 30-'06 is a good compromise. It's probably perfect for Elk, and it can do the job on everything else when it must. But this is not 1933 and most of us have at least a couple of options to choose from for the job at hand.

The 30-06 is likely over-kill for most things.

 

[Shadow9mm]

The 30-06 is likely over-kill for most things.

depends on how far away they are...