Why magnums for the LOWER 48, when even in AK Fish & Game say 30-06 enough?

[Pistoler0]

Hello all,

I started another thread on the usefulness of magnums in USA,
Why magnums for USA, if AK Fish & Game say 30-06 enough?
and the conversation veered towards the necessity of magnums for defense from bears in AK.

But that's not exactly what I had in mind in the OP, although it is also very interesting.


My thinking was along the lines that when Alaska Fish & Game says this? :
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm...nting.firearms
"Because of the presence of brown and grizzly bears, many hunters have been convinced that a .300, .338, .375, or .416 magnum is needed for personal protection and to take large Alaska game. This is simply not true."

.... is there a reason for a magnum in the LOWER 48 aside from long range competition? (unless planning to go to Africa or AK)

Is one all set in the lower 48 with a .308, 30-06 or 6.5 Creed?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

AGAIN...what does it matter what some state government agency thinks.

Is there a reason?? REALLY? Since when does there need to be a reason beyond it is what someone wants?

Maybe if you can explain why AK Fish and Game is now God and makes all the justifications for everywhere else, then maybe your query would have some validity. This was answered several times in your previous thread.

 

[Reloadron]

My only Magnum rifle is a 7mm Remington Magnum. I have no idea why I bought it long. long (long, long = 30 Years) ago. I think because I wanted a flatter trajectory. Was it needed for anything in the lower 48? Nothing I can think of and I also see no need to anything Magnum in the lower 48. God willing someone with a thing about bears won't start on them in this thread. A good hunter skilled with a bow can take a Kodiak 1,500 pound bear.

Trajectory and Ballistics
With its original 150-grain spire point bullet at 2,700 fps, the Springfield . 30/06 was certified for an extreme reach of 4.75 miles, an effective firing range of 1,000 yards. A flip up rear leaf sight was graduated for ranges out to 2,850 yards.

.... is there a reason for a magnum in the LOWER 48 aside from long range competition? (unless planning to go to Africa or AK)

No reason I can think of. The 30-06 is plenty adequate for any game in the lower 48 and I guess Hawaii and many will argue the North American Continent when employed by someone with the right skill set.

So much for hunting. I figure some belted magnums have a place in F Class and long range target shooting.

I have a friend who simply had an attraction to big bore rifles, he had them all. No real reason as he didn't hunt. He simply had this thing for big bore guns. .338 Lapua, 458 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Remington Mag and the list goes on. He recently passed away leaving a wife and daughter with some really big bore guns. I never understood the attraction but one of the nicest people I had the pleasure of knowing.

Ron

 

[Pistoler0]

Maybe if you can explain why AK Fish and Game is now God and makes all the justifications for everywhere else, then maybe your query would have some validity.

I am sorry that my query has no validity.

By all means feel free to ignore it and to abstain from replying.

 

[Maxwell Haus]

Why two threads on the same subject , not getting the answers you want ?

 

[Pistoler0]

Why two threads on the same subject , not getting the answers you want ?

No, not exactly

Mostly my fault because in the previous thread, as I framed it around the USA, the conversation veered towards AK. And I can see how magnums may be of use there, but for me Alaska is not relevant because I don't have the means to hunt there (I would LOVE to). So the conversation regarding bears in AK is interesting! .. and I've been follwoing it, but it is not the info that I was trying to get.

I should have framed the previous thread around the lower 48. So my line of thinking is that if the most dangerous game is in AK and even there some (including Fish & Game) doubt the utility of a magnum, does a magnum do something for someone like me in the lower 48 than the 30-06 cannot do?

Put in another way: If I am going to buy a rifle, does a magnum make sense if never visiting AK or leaving the USA?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Put in another way: If I am going to buy a rifle and planning on hunting big game, would you advise me to get a magnum if I am never going to visit AK or leave the USA?

Wow, not even remotely the same query.

Again, this information you need was answered in the previous thread.

Given your apparent firearms inexperience, no, YOU probably should not be shooting a magnum anything on your first big game hunt.

 

[Pistoler0]

Wow, not even remotely the same query.

Again, this information you need was answered in the previous thread.

Given your apparent firearms inexperience, no, YOU probably should not be shooting a magnum anything on your first big game hunt.

ok, I am using the first person "I" as a rethorical for the discussion. And for the record, I do not "need" this information. I just enjoy talking about firearms with other folks.

How about if it is not someone's first big game hunt as you assumed?
Or if we are talking about someone not inexperienced with firearms but not an advanced shooter either.

Suppose someone already has a 30-06. And that they have put, say, 10,000 rds through it. Can they do something with a magnum in the lower 48 that they could not do with their previous rifle?
Does a magnum do something in the lower 48 than the 30-06 does not?

Given your apparent firearms inexperience, no, YOU probably should not be shooting a magnum anything on your first big game hunt.

Given your lack of reading comprehension and your apparent interest in lecturing people who just want to have a conversation, I don't think YOU should be giving advice.
But at this point you probably care as much for my opinion as I care for yours, no?

 

[NWPilgrim]

It won’t go much better here. Montana and Idaho at least have grizzlies again. And some of the black bear near the Canada border get near 500 lbs. So if defense against large bear of either type is on the table then magnums could be desired. Although I would favor a lever action .45-70.

Ignoring defense against large northern WA/ID/MT bears...

Magnums of .338 and smaller caliber can still have a place hunting in the vast open areas of the West. Mainly to flatten the trajectory. If a range finder is used then a magnum may not be as needed.

But for 95% of hunts that take game under 300 yds the .308/.30-06 family of cartridges and similar will suffice. Especially if premium mono metal or bonded bullets are used. I am not familiar with bison hunting, so that may or may not require more oomph. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with use more gun than nominally needed. I wouldn’t laugh at someone using a .338 mag or .375 H&H on deer or elk if that pleased them. If I could afford the feeding of it, it would be fun to try the .375.

There are so many factors that go into choosing a cartridge for the purpose. Some enjoy the stalk and challenge of making use of terrain, wind and stealth and use muzzle loaders, pistols or archery. Others are out for meat and have very limited hunt days so a magnum that can reach across an open expanse and forego a gamble and many hours on a close stalk might be preferred. The type of Hunter and terrain vary so much across America that we end up with so many valid and interesting choices.

Gun ownership isn’t just about necessity though. There is the fun factor, nostalgia, historical, and “just because I can” factor. Read a few books by Peter Capstick and I am ready to prowl the PNW woods with a .458 mag looking for Cape Buffalo! Bambi be warned!

 

[44 AMP]

First point, bickering with another member in a thread will get it shut down as fast as anything...REMEMBER THAT, Gentlemen...

.... is there a reason for a magnum in the LOWER 48 aside from long range competition? (unless planning to go to Africa or AK)

Sure there is, but not necessarily the way you and others are thinking.

Remember that the majority of "magnum" rifle rounds were developed in a time when range finders were scarce, and large and bulky and very few people had them. Today's laser ranger finders are pocket sized, but still there are a lot of people who don't use them.

And, its a fact that few people (particularly the once a year sport hunters) are not all that accurate estimating range accurately especially beyond 300yds.

And, drop at long ranges matters. Take a look at the drop tables and see what kind of difference there is when you get out past 300yds. A mis-estimation of the range by 50 or more yards (something easily possible at long range working just "by eye) can turn a good shot into a bad shot or even a clean miss due to the difference in drop between the range you THINK the deer is at and where it actually is.

With their flatter trajectories, magnum rifle rounds help "make up" (to a degree) for misestimating the range, and that can turn a miss or wounding shot into a killing shot in still in the boiler room compared to a standard velocity such as the 06. So there is some utility there.

The other side of the "magnum" coin are the short magnums. Rounds capable of giving the velocity of longer "standard" rounds but in shorter action rifles, so that, even with equal barrel lengths you get full performance from a rifle that is shorter and handier.
as one example, I have a .350Rem Mag, that delivers the same ballistics as the .35 Whelen, but does it in a shorter, handier package.

Yet another side of the coin (its a strange coin, more like D&D dice ) is that magnum rounds can throw heavier bullets at the speed standard rounds throw lighter ones.

Another side is the range of versatility possible to handloaders. Magnums don't HAVE to be shot at full power all the time. I have a .458 Win Mag. I don't shoot 500gr elephant loads in it, I shoot 400gr handloads to about 2/3 of the round's velocity potential, duplicating the performance of the 45-90 or .45-120 in a modern bolt gun using brass that (until recently) I could get brass for...

SO, those are a few of the REASONS for magnums in the lower 48. NEED is a different question.

 

[pete2]

The advantage of a magnum is it shoots flatter making it better for longer range shooting.
This is why I shoot a .270 instead of a 7 Mag. Unless you need a real heavy bullet the .270 pretty much keeps up with the 7mag for normal hunting. (the 3006 ain't too shabby).

 

[Shadow9mm]

I have read the posts in the other thread as well as this one

You are asking the same question, and will get the same answer as the majority of big game in animals in AK and the lower 48 overlap significantly.

Again, the main point AK was making was that, people were buying big rifles, that they were not familiar with and could not handle, and that using a rifle that is adequate and you are familiar with is the important thing.

Also as pointed out several times, it is a RECOMMENDATION from AK, not a definitive statement, they are not the end all authority. Double Naught Spy's point is completely valid.

Does a magnum do something in the lower 48 than the 30-06 does not?

Yes it does, the same as it does in AK, same as in the last thread. Magnums throw bigger heavier faster and sometimes farther. They also kick more and some people don't like them or cant handle them, or are unwilling to get used to them.

Based on the way you have asked the same question twice, and don't seem to understand the answer, and that the answer is the same (very similar large game overlap between lower 48 and AK) You do present yourself VERY INEXPERIENCED with firearms. Perhaps you should consider your composition skills rather than critiquing others reading comprehension.

As far as I am concerned this thread should be closed. Its a repeat. The foundational material is the same. It askes the same foundational question in relation to magnus vs large/dangerous game. The large/dangerous game in AK significantly overlaps with the lower 48. It is simply another caliber war thread and is already causing arguments. And the pertinent questions were already answered in the other thread this one is pointless.

 

[JustJake]

I have read the posts in the other thread as well as this one
You are asking the same question, and will get the same answer as the majority of big game in animals in AK and the lower 48 overlap significantly.

Pretty much my take too ...

If the OP didn't learn anything from the responses generated over the four pages of the first thread (now locked), he ain't likely to learn anything in this one that wasn't already said earlier.

 

[recoil junky]

There's no replacement for displacement.

Which sounds better, SS350 or 429 Boss?

Fact: the 30-06 has likely killed more big game in north America than any other cartridge.

Fact: I got my Sevumag so my son could use my Dad's 30-06 when we hunt together.

Fact: I got my 300RUM because, well, uhm, er, hmm,

RJ

 

[FrankenMauser]

is there a reason for a magnum in the LOWER 48

Obviously.

Velocity.

 

[44 AMP]

Fact: the 30-06 has likely killed more big game in north America than any other cartridge.

Due to its age, popularity and effectiveness, adding them all up, you might be right. But, grammatically, if its "likely", then its not exactly a "fact"

But then, consider the .30-30, which has an even longer track record, and quite possibly in total might have accounted for more big game animals than the .30-06, even still today,.

And then there is also the .30-40 Krag, though the total numbers are smaller, considering the Krag began fading away after WWII, it was not a false claim that the Krag had killed dead everything that walks in North America. I believe the largest grizzly taken in the lower 48 was done with a Krag...

In Canada the .303 British occuppies the same spot as the Krag and the 06 in the US. or, used to....

 

[Hanshi]

For one thing it enables the companies sell more guns and ammo. Another thing is the common misconception that more is always better. Too many "shooters" also like to blast away at ridiculous distances rather than actually HUNT. Some magnums I've owned and like are the 375 H&H and the .338 Win mag. I no longer have them and never killed a deer with either that was farther than about 30 yards. I do like my .350 Rem mag and have taken many deer with that fine rifle; but it's not really a "magnum", is it? It's a good, solid rifle that handles bullets from 200 grns to 250 grns and drops anything in NA that one can get close enough to for an ethical shot.

 

[ballardw]

My dad's .264 Win mag was acquired with the idea of hunting antelope. Some of the places hunting these 300 yards is close because the critters are wily. So the idea was to have something with as flat a trajectory as practical. All this back in the 1950's.

 

[handlerer2]

I am catching a vibe that you disapprove of magnum rifles in the western hemisphere.

The vibe I feel as a magnum rifle owner is we don't need the approval of the state of Alaska or anyone else to justify our use of a magnum rifle.

I own and reload for 340WBY, 300WBY, 6.5x284, 223 and some magnum pistols.

Many casual shooters consider the WBY's to be grossly overpowered, and they are more than necessary for American whitetails. But these magnums allow quartering shots on larger game that a conscientious hunter would have to pass on.

Laser range finders are a very useful tool for the modern hunter, but I find them very difficult to hold steady enough to lase an animal, sometimes. I find it more useful to range objects on the terrain that I hope they might wander near to. Say I range a boulder at 400yds, if an elk or a deer walks between me and that boulder, it's within the point-blank range of my 300WBY. Not that I have ever fired at a deer at 400yds.

I have been reloading for magnum centerfires since 1976, so I can shoot all the WBY magnums that I can stand.

I have passed the 300WBY on to my son, who has been shooting it like a pro, since he was a 130lb, 15-year-old kid. He now has 5 kids.

His son, unfortunately, has severe allergies. He can't eat beef or pork. He can eat venison, elk and moose. My son is able to provide safe healthy food for his family and more importantly for my grandson.

It may seem like a frontier day's story, but there are still people who hunt animals for food because they need to. My son works hard and can afford to put beef, pork and chicken in the freezer. Feeding 5 kids doesn't leave money in the budget to buy bison. So he needs to put a Mule deer or two in the freezer or the dehydrator every year, for my grandson.

A 300 and 340WBY have more retained energy at 300yds than a 30-06 has at the muzzle. This has, by our experience, allowed shots on game that we might have had to pass on with a 30-06 or a 308. This level of power may not seem sporting to some, but to my son this is not a sport. It is killing with a purpose.

I may have started shooting magnum rifles and pistols out of a fascination with things considered grossly overpowered, such as guns, cars and women. With the exception of cars I have found a use for all of them.

My son, has been able to, IMO, improve his odds of bringing home meat. So a magnum rifle has a viable use in the lower 48, even if the head fishcop in Alaska thinks not.

 

[JustJake]

And then there is also the .30-40 Krag, though the total numbers are smaller, considering the Krag began fading away after WWII, it was not a false claim that the Krag had killed dead everything that walks in North America. I believe the largest grizzly taken in the lower 48 was done with a Krag...

This is spot on.

I have a "sporterized" Krag that was handed-down in the family. (Think it was my gramp's or great-gramp's.)

Anyway, that original Krag Mil-load pushing a 220RN bullet @ 2000-ish fps kills out of all proportion to its rather mild-looking "paper ballistics." The Krag 220gn load has taken down tons of deer, elk, moose, and yes, bears - all or 'em too: black, brown, and Grizzly.

Lots of surplus Krags made their way north to the Alaskan frontier in the early 20th Century, along with 1903s sold as surplus or that were sporterized in the decades after WW1.

"Ya shoulda shot me with a .375 Magnum instead!" no Grizz or moose ever said, after falling to a Krag.