Absolutely incredible stupidity and cupidity. I'm usually pretty free-market but this is simply criminal:
http://tinyurl.com/3666dt
http://tinyurl.com/3666dt
Why gas prices are rising
- Thread starter HKuser
- Start date
As a younger conservative, I used to scoff at those who claimed corporations were bad, and evil and needed to be reined in. As a supporter of a free market economy, I found value in corporations and what they do. In the 80's and 90's, corporations spent a lot of money campaigning for our government to sign these "Free trade deals". It sounded great to me because we were told that it would strengthen our economy, not weaken it.
Now, many years have passed since we began shipping our manufacturing jobs to China, Mexico and beyond. The USA is no longer a manufacturing nation. We are a service nation. We hardly manufacture anything any more.
Of course, this means that there are less good jobs with good pay and benefits, but hey, don't let facts get in the way of our desire to be a "free market economy". The only thing free about it is that our people are free to earn less money, at jobs that have fewer benefits while we send our money over-seas to purchase Chinese products. The Chinese are then free to "loan" some of that money back to our government as our politicians spend our children and grand-children into poverty. The Chinese use the rest of our "dollars" to purchase weapons to build up their military at a phenomenal rate.
So, what's so great about a free-market economy again?
Now, many years have passed since we began shipping our manufacturing jobs to China, Mexico and beyond. The USA is no longer a manufacturing nation. We are a service nation. We hardly manufacture anything any more.
Of course, this means that there are less good jobs with good pay and benefits, but hey, don't let facts get in the way of our desire to be a "free market economy". The only thing free about it is that our people are free to earn less money, at jobs that have fewer benefits while we send our money over-seas to purchase Chinese products. The Chinese are then free to "loan" some of that money back to our government as our politicians spend our children and grand-children into poverty. The Chinese use the rest of our "dollars" to purchase weapons to build up their military at a phenomenal rate.
So, what's so great about a free-market economy again?
Petroleum is a commodity, sold for its replacement cost. The fact that we have adequate oil supplies is in no small part due to the fact that people speculate regarding that future supply. At $100 a barrel, there is a lot of oil that can profitably be extracted that couldn't be extracted at $25 per.
The author cites declining US demand in the face of rising prices as if one couldn't result from the other. That, plus his failure to deal with the future impact of indian and chinese consumption, struck me as a bit simple.
I do agree with him on the lunacy of using food for conversion to fuel. I don't pretend to know too much about corn based alcohol as a fuel, but my guess would be that in the absence of subsidy, retail fuel prices would have to be over $10 a gallon for it to make economic sense to burn a food supply.
I'd like to think that's true, but try reading: Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds
As for the price of oil, much of the reason is because our government has mismanged our economy and the value of the dollar has sunk. When the value of a currency falls, prices of items tied to that currency rise to adjust itself based on the weaker value of the currency.
Basic economics. Ron Paul tried to teach us this stuff during his campaigns, but the people preferred slick, professional politicians over truthful, honest, intelligent candidates.
Basic economics. Ron Paul tried to teach us this stuff during his campaigns, but the people preferred slick, professional politicians over truthful, honest, intelligent candidates.
I think he addressed that, a 30% drop in the dollar does not explain a 500% rise in oil prices. It looks like a bubble, hopefully it will pop sooner rather than later before too much damage is done to the infrastructure, such as refinery closings because their margins are too small. The big money is being put into trading rather than delivery.
applesanity
New member
FireMax said:
Deal with it. Or you can try to justify $20/hr. jobs - with huge pension plans - for stamping metal and bolting rivets. Just look at what happened to Rolls-Royce and Jag-oo-arr recently.
FireMax said:
- Automation. Or... Let's destroy all those robots that are putting honest American blue-collar laborers out of work. wikipedia.org/Luddite
- We manufacture Toyota cars in Kentucky. Here's an idea - buy a Toyota Prius; I hear you'll save lots of $$ on gas. Plus, you'll be supporting American manufacturing.
FireMax said:
If you're not naked and are sitting at your computer right now, then there are at least a dozen items within 3 feet of you that were either made in China or assembled from parts made in China and/or Mexico. You hypocrite.
FireMax said:
Ugh.
Firemax said:
Really? Wow, you are so insightful.
Firemax said:
Ignoratio Elenchi. You're thinking of inflation. We're not experiencing inflation right now.
Firemax said:
Oh yeah, about going back to the gold standard. Come to think of it, I caught RP on the Glen Beck show yesterday; he spewing all sorts of crazy conspiracy theories about how the Fed and all the country's banks are in cahoots with one another because they're evil, all evil!
Firemax said:
You realize that everything you've typed up in this thread is a certified Obama talking point about "fair trade" (a euphemism for populism + protectionism), right? I'd say Obama is one "slick, professional" politician, wouldn't you?
So, what, you are going to box me in and call me a liberal because I dislike sending American jobs to China while you support the idea? I always suggest watching less FoxNews whenever possible.
Of course, businesses want to do things as efficiently as possible in order to make more profit. They can do this by manufacturing things in other countries at cheaper rates of pay for the workers. Without a doubt, that is good for the company. You support this idea, I am gathering.
Clearly, sending American jobs to other countries is not good for the American worker. I have heard people try to explain that it is, but honestly, they are full of sh1t and they know it.
So, tow the line for the big business elites if you wish. Just don't be surprised if some of us out in the real world find your reasoning a bit.... well... without merit.
Really? You must really be gullible if you believe the government's numbers. Of course, I live in the real world and I can tell you this.
1. Since 2004... gas has gone from $1.90 gallon to $3.49 a gallon. I'm no economist, but I would say that this indicates inflation.
2. Since 2002, milk has risen from about $2.95 a gallon to $4.00+ a gallon. Again, call me silly but that seems like inflation to me.
Other prices have gone up to. For example, in the year 2001, gold was at $275 oz. Today it sells for nearly $900 per ounce.
Falling value of a currency indicates an increase in the money supply which results in inflation. Of course, any first semester economy student will understand that.
As for your belief in what that magical box called television is telling you... here is a short story which might open your eyes. A week before the company Bear Stearns failed and their stock went down to $2.00 a share, a viewer sent an email into one of those afternoon Money shows on the cable news networks. The person asked the "know it all" television personality what he should do with his Bear Stearns stock... it had fallen to $157.00 per share at that time. The television personality told him he should hold on to it. A week later, the stock was selling for $2.00 per share.
So you see, applesanity, the television is not the best place to be getting your economic advice from.
Zuikfile, there are many people who feel the same way that you do. As our economy sinks and the layoffs begin and the companies begin to fail, the people on television say "all is well" and the people dutifully believe.
It's just that, I don't dutifully believe what others tell me. How someone can believe that there is no price to be paid for sending American manufacturing jobs overseas is beyond comprehension. Our country is being bankrupted by corrupt politicians which our people blindly vote into office because we, as a people, are ignorant of what is really happening.
applesanity
New member
Did I use the word liberal? No, I labeled you a protectionist and a populist, whose beliefs about economics are in line with Obama's rhetoric. That is what you are.
Strawman.
FireMax said:
Ad hom.
FireMax said:
Another ad hom + strawman.
FireMax said:
So far, you haven't made one actual logical, argument, one full of fluff and outrage. I wrote a long post in response to many of your erroneous statements and you just chose to respond to the last one.
Does the thought of having the same economical politics as Obama trouble you? Does it hurt? No matter how many straw men, red herrings, or irrelevant conclusions you're coming up with, the fact remains: your ideas about American economics are Obama sound bites.
Have you considered supporting Obama? He really, really hates all those evil, greedy corporations that offshore and outsource. He really wants to protect American workers. Oh, how he woos and courts the blue collars in Ohio and Pennsylvania. Oh, how he stands up to those evil, greedy oil cartels that reaped $billions in profits last year while making poor old FireMax suffer at the pump. He's proposing "fair trade," or raising tariffs on foreign-made products. He's here to save you from the evils of free-market economy. Hope. Change. He's your kind of guy. He really is.
While often full of gibberish, Glen Beck made a good point on his show last night - gas prices may have gone up significantly, but the price of milk has shot up several times over. While hasn't Congress on after the evil, greedy milk corporations like they did the oil "tycoons" yesterday? (Note, the rise in gas prices doesn't nearly compensate for the massive increase in milk prices, so don't even bother trying to rebut with that argument)
I hope that I have not made it sound very simple because I don't think this problem has any simple answers. However, I do know the definition of insanity.
Insanity - Doing the same thing today that you did yesterday while expecting a different result.
So, my point is, we have to admit the failings of these so called "trade deals" that our politicians signed. They have resulted in depressed wages for our people and a loss of millions of manufacturing jobs to overseas companies.
That is the first step. The second step is to not sign any further trade agreements. These agreements ALWAYS BENEFIT COMPANIES AND OTHER COUNTRIES, NOT THE AMERICAN WORKER.
You know, our country existed for 200 years without these so-called trade agreements. Without them, I am certain we will do as well or better than we are doing now. The main thing is, we need to return our economy to a manufacturing economy. There is no country in the world that will sustain its economy without the ability to manufacture and sell goods. THAT, is a simple point which I am surprised that fewer people understand.
applesanity
New member
FireMax said:
Another ad hominem. Please, do us all a favor and define what you mean by "elitists."
sasquatch said:
In the early 19th-century England, at the time of the Industrial Revolution, textile machines and the emergence of free market were competing with honest, blue collar British textile laborers - using fixed guild prices. Machines were replacing real human workers. Competition was pricing fixed guild prices out the markets. So these "Luddites" went on a rampage and destroyed the machines. Historical analogies....
Back on subject, FireMax, you really should address the arguments made against you when you reply. You just pick little snippets that you think you can refute, but you fail regardless. Once again, your views on economy, labor, and those evil oil corporations are in line with Obama rhetoric.