Exactly. I have found fixed lower power (<10x) scope works really well. I need the parallax adjustment though, AO or side. Exposed turrets too. That makes swfa ss perfect choice. Affordable and made in Japan.
-TL
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Why do we need high scope magnification
- Thread starter tangolima
- Start date
Exactly. I have found fixed lower power (<10x) scope works really well. I need the parallax adjustment though, AO or side. Exposed turrets too. That makes swfa ss perfect choice. Affordable and made in Japan.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
David Todd
New member
F class, long range bench rest, and long range hunting are three areas where a high quality, precision scope is super advantageous, in fact almost mandatory to make good shots.
In Fclass, the V ( or X ring) is 1/2MOA, and the bull is 1MOA.
In relative ( but not EXACT) terms for the 1,000 yard target, that is 5" for the V and 10" for the bull . shooters either turret over for the condition or hold over, and being able to see the scoring rings to do that is very important.
The course of fire is either ten or 15 rounds for score, from 300 to 1,000 yards, depending on the club running the match, and in a big match there is not much difference in points or X count i the first five places
1,000 yard bench is much the same way, the Williamsport club for example , shoots, ten rounds for score and group size at 1,000 yards.
For long range hunting , a variable power scope that is capable of running a higher magnification is desirable , so the hunter can place his first round into exactly where he wants to drop the animal.
Variables are pretty much mandatory in all cases , because at times the higher power is distorted by the light conditions, mirage, etc., so the scope power can be turned down slightly. The other day at 1,000 we had so much mirage coming off the snow , most shooters were down to about 25X from 32X or 40X.
Hope this helps explain why at times high powered scopes are important.
David
In Fclass, the V ( or X ring) is 1/2MOA, and the bull is 1MOA.
In relative ( but not EXACT) terms for the 1,000 yard target, that is 5" for the V and 10" for the bull . shooters either turret over for the condition or hold over, and being able to see the scoring rings to do that is very important.
The course of fire is either ten or 15 rounds for score, from 300 to 1,000 yards, depending on the club running the match, and in a big match there is not much difference in points or X count i the first five places
1,000 yard bench is much the same way, the Williamsport club for example , shoots, ten rounds for score and group size at 1,000 yards.
For long range hunting , a variable power scope that is capable of running a higher magnification is desirable , so the hunter can place his first round into exactly where he wants to drop the animal.
Variables are pretty much mandatory in all cases , because at times the higher power is distorted by the light conditions, mirage, etc., so the scope power can be turned down slightly. The other day at 1,000 we had so much mirage coming off the snow , most shooters were down to about 25X from 32X or 40X.
Hope this helps explain why at times high powered scopes are important.
David
Thanks for the info. I've never been to such competition. 0.5 and 1 moa at 1000yd. Those are crazy targets. For me statistics will be the only hope. Fire enough number of rounds, and one of them may hit.
Anyway that again is for small target. But seeing the target is different from seeing the bullet holes. A .30 cal bullet makes 0.03moa hole. That really requires high magnification and light condition to locate. 0.5 / 1 moa circles are quite visible with moderate magnification of say 10x, I think. If you dial in the corrections, the cross hairs are on the center of the target. Reticle hold over is a bit harder to do. But 0.075moa stadia thickness shouldn't be problem. I suppose there is spotter with capable spotting scope to call out corrections. Shooter doesn't need to locate the poi himself.
I have never hunted. But all the real life hunters I have talked to, including on this forum, they all prefer low magnifications 4x, 6x, <9x. It was they who have made me think about magnification. Before that I also thought higher the better. Now I think there exists an optimum for human eye. High magnification is for sure not the optimum for myself.
-TL
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Anyway that again is for small target. But seeing the target is different from seeing the bullet holes. A .30 cal bullet makes 0.03moa hole. That really requires high magnification and light condition to locate. 0.5 / 1 moa circles are quite visible with moderate magnification of say 10x, I think. If you dial in the corrections, the cross hairs are on the center of the target. Reticle hold over is a bit harder to do. But 0.075moa stadia thickness shouldn't be problem. I suppose there is spotter with capable spotting scope to call out corrections. Shooter doesn't need to locate the poi himself.
I have never hunted. But all the real life hunters I have talked to, including on this forum, they all prefer low magnifications 4x, 6x, <9x. It was they who have made me think about magnification. Before that I also thought higher the better. Now I think there exists an optimum for human eye. High magnification is for sure not the optimum for myself.
-TL
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And, on the other side of the coin, when you need minute of moose and a high power scope only shows you hair in its small field of view, you're unlikely to be able to make an accurate shot.
I've got nothing against high power scopes for some shooting, and don't have an issue with variables only the way some folks will use them.
If your target (target or game animal) is far enough away you don't need to take a snap shot, you've got the time to "zoom in" as much as you wish. The reverse is rarely true.
This is so true. Big scopes can be hard for inexperienced or simple folks. I mean, mine absolutely has to be down to 3-5x, 100 yd parallax and caps down to move. Setting up on a 400yd deer, I will likely twist to 10-15x, but then before I shoot, I think….can I see a couple of deer widths around the deer. This thing is going to recoil and reducing magnification helps me see them drop or run or whatever happens. I twisted down to about 8x….don’t care because it is ffp. Dialed in my elevation and boom.
Discussing this with my dad, he said he just carries on 9x and shoots on 9x. Now he has a 4-16x….wonder what he will do with that!
You don't, but people think more is better. Me and my buddies used to shoot ground squirrels out to 500+ yds with 4X scopes fifty years ago, now it seems like you cant get a decent scope what doesnt have a 60mm objective lense, zoom from 5-30X, parallax adjustment and illuminated reticles. You really don't need it, especially in a cheap scope. My brother bought a Barska 8-32 scope and it can only be used up to about 16X because the scope is so crappy.Why do we need high scope magnification
Back when I was working selling in a sporting goods store, I used to tell people buy the clearest scope you can find, don't buy the most magnification. Clarity costs more, but you'll be happier with it than a crappy powerful scope.
stagpanther
New member
It sounds counterintuitive--but I would say a high power scope with high clarity glass is essential for high accuracy/small target 22LR shooting at anything from 50 yds out. My highest power top tier scope spends most of its time on my 22lr rifles.
The craziest target I have heard so far is 0.25moa at 1000yd (center fire of course). Even with that I can't convince myself that I need anything over 20x. I even think I do better to stay below 15x. I can't imagine shooting with like 40x50. The exist pupil is so tiny to be any good.
Went to range yesterday. Set my soda can target at 150yd. 22lr rifle has a $50 fixed 4x32 on it. Being a cheap scope the reticle stadia is kinda thick, probably 1/8moa. But the soda can was totally visible. I think I hit it 50% of the time. Windage was the challenge. I had to adjust the hold over based on the wind perceived. I switched to AR in 6.5 grendel. It had a proper variable power scope set to 10x. Sure I could read the logo on the can. I could hit the target close to 100%. If I were to switch scopes between those 2 rifles, I most certainly would get the similar scores.
-TL
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Went to range yesterday. Set my soda can target at 150yd. 22lr rifle has a $50 fixed 4x32 on it. Being a cheap scope the reticle stadia is kinda thick, probably 1/8moa. But the soda can was totally visible. I think I hit it 50% of the time. Windage was the challenge. I had to adjust the hold over based on the wind perceived. I switched to AR in 6.5 grendel. It had a proper variable power scope set to 10x. Sure I could read the logo on the can. I could hit the target close to 100%. If I were to switch scopes between those 2 rifles, I most certainly would get the similar scores.
-TL
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Continued with my 22lr "training" with 4x32 scope. I think I'm graduating from 150yd and will move on to 200yd (there aren't any target stands between 150yd and 200yd).
Today I could actually spot the bullet in flight. That's a good thing. I didn't blink when the rifle went off. We have a trap range with the backstop slope littered with clay ducks. I usually save 20 rounds or so to help clear the slope. The distance is 100m, or 110yd. I crack one piece and will keep hitting the smaller pieces. Some of them were so small that they were mostly obscured by the cross hairs of the reticle. Wind was blowing. I needed to make constant adjustments to the hold over. I'm trying to develop an instinct to read the wind.
-TL
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Today I could actually spot the bullet in flight. That's a good thing. I didn't blink when the rifle went off. We have a trap range with the backstop slope littered with clay ducks. I usually save 20 rounds or so to help clear the slope. The distance is 100m, or 110yd. I crack one piece and will keep hitting the smaller pieces. Some of them were so small that they were mostly obscured by the cross hairs of the reticle. Wind was blowing. I needed to make constant adjustments to the hold over. I'm trying to develop an instinct to read the wind.
-TL
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Many years ago, I did some testing with .22LR target rifles at 50 and 100 yards with different scope powers to determine what was best for target shooting accuracy.
For both 50 and 100 yards, I used 0.5-inch diamond targets on a vertical/horizontal grid that was 0.050 wide.
I purposely set the target reticle to have the POI hit in each diamond so it didn't mess up my point of aim at the lower tip of the diamond.
I started with 9X at 50 yards that I was used to shooting.
Then I tried 15X and reduced the group sizes to 85%
Then I tried 24X and reduced the group sizes to 72%
Then I tried 36X with a target reticle and the group average didn't change appreciably so I concluded that the 36X didn't have an advantage at 50 yards.
However, at 100 yards the 36X scope with a target reticle did have an advantage with consistency and ease of seeing the target aim point.
As a result, I now use T-36X Weaver fixed power scopes on all my target .22 rifles.
I've tested 58 different ammos at 50 yards.
After shooting over 6,000 5-round groups at 50 yards, and only the 10 better performing ammos at 100 yards, I have found that aiming small at an aim point of 0.050 is much more conducive to achieving small groups than trying to guess where that aim point is behind a reticle that covers the aim point with a lower power scope.
These days, all 4 of my .22 LR target rifles are equipped with Weaver T-36 scopes fitted with their competition reticle dials - great for adjusting the scope quickly when shifting from 50 to 100 yards.
All my target centerfire rifles have target reticles on either 36x42mm Sightrons or NightForce 8-32x56mm Benchrest NightForce scopes.
My best shooting centerfire rifles have the NF scopes because the brighter optics with the larger front optics work best for morning shooting in the winter.
The 32X NightForce scopes with 4x lower power actually produce slightly better results than the 36X Sightrons when I switched between scopes. Group sizes were better by about 10%, even with the lower power. Bright clear sight pictures apparently are more productive as long as you don't cover the aim point with the reticle.
I probably would not have suspected these results when I was younger when my eyes were better. As I got older, the value of 'aim small/hit small' became more apparent.
For both 50 and 100 yards, I used 0.5-inch diamond targets on a vertical/horizontal grid that was 0.050 wide.
I purposely set the target reticle to have the POI hit in each diamond so it didn't mess up my point of aim at the lower tip of the diamond.
I started with 9X at 50 yards that I was used to shooting.
Then I tried 15X and reduced the group sizes to 85%
Then I tried 24X and reduced the group sizes to 72%
Then I tried 36X with a target reticle and the group average didn't change appreciably so I concluded that the 36X didn't have an advantage at 50 yards.
However, at 100 yards the 36X scope with a target reticle did have an advantage with consistency and ease of seeing the target aim point.
As a result, I now use T-36X Weaver fixed power scopes on all my target .22 rifles.
I've tested 58 different ammos at 50 yards.
After shooting over 6,000 5-round groups at 50 yards, and only the 10 better performing ammos at 100 yards, I have found that aiming small at an aim point of 0.050 is much more conducive to achieving small groups than trying to guess where that aim point is behind a reticle that covers the aim point with a lower power scope.
These days, all 4 of my .22 LR target rifles are equipped with Weaver T-36 scopes fitted with their competition reticle dials - great for adjusting the scope quickly when shifting from 50 to 100 yards.
All my target centerfire rifles have target reticles on either 36x42mm Sightrons or NightForce 8-32x56mm Benchrest NightForce scopes.
My best shooting centerfire rifles have the NF scopes because the brighter optics with the larger front optics work best for morning shooting in the winter.
The 32X NightForce scopes with 4x lower power actually produce slightly better results than the 36X Sightrons when I switched between scopes. Group sizes were better by about 10%, even with the lower power. Bright clear sight pictures apparently are more productive as long as you don't cover the aim point with the reticle.
I probably would not have suspected these results when I was younger when my eyes were better. As I got older, the value of 'aim small/hit small' became more apparent.
Thanks Rimfire. Great that 36x works for you. But I'm afraid it probably won't work for me. Several reasons. The POA will dance around so much that I will have sea sick. It is true that it is the real indication of my ability to hold sight picture, but it becomes counterproductive to help correct it. The exist pupil is too small. Even with 50mm objective lens, the exist pupil diameter will be well smaller 2mm. The target will appear dim and with vignetting except with young eye and bright day light.
0.5moa diamond is mighty small indeed. But still I will stay below 20x. Most likely 10x.
Shooting tiny group is cool. But hitting target of size is what counts. Small group off target is a consistent miss. Slightly bigger group on target is hit with good chance. It is always a compromise and hence an optimum combination exists.
I like this way to understand it. Given a target, what is the distance I can hit it consistently with 1x magnification (say open sight)? Scope magnification just multiplies this distance. Say I can hit soda can with iron at 50yd, 4x magnification will enable me to do the same at 200yd, give and take. It makes sense. Follow the same logic, I don't really need much magnification.
-TL
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0.5moa diamond is mighty small indeed. But still I will stay below 20x. Most likely 10x.
Shooting tiny group is cool. But hitting target of size is what counts. Small group off target is a consistent miss. Slightly bigger group on target is hit with good chance. It is always a compromise and hence an optimum combination exists.
I like this way to understand it. Given a target, what is the distance I can hit it consistently with 1x magnification (say open sight)? Scope magnification just multiplies this distance. Say I can hit soda can with iron at 50yd, 4x magnification will enable me to do the same at 200yd, give and take. It makes sense. Follow the same logic, I don't really need much magnification.
-TL
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If I wasn't shooting off a bench with a really solid F-class bipod and a solid rear bag, I would never even attempt to use more than 15x or 20X scope.
At my age, vibration is a fact of life.
For me, the F-Class bipod from Sinclair actually is steadier than my very expensive Sinclair adjustable rest so I have come to depend upon it for all my benchrest shooting.
For me, with that really solid set of rests, vibration is not a factor even with 32X or 36X scopes. On warm days though, heat mirages require some patience.
At my age, vibration is a fact of life.
For me, the F-Class bipod from Sinclair actually is steadier than my very expensive Sinclair adjustable rest so I have come to depend upon it for all my benchrest shooting.
For me, with that really solid set of rests, vibration is not a factor even with 32X or 36X scopes. On warm days though, heat mirages require some patience.
Something your all forgetting.
Unless it's a fixed power scope, the magnification can be turned down.
For hunting i use 4-12 and 4-16 power scopes.
For match shooting i have 2 that are 4-20 power, and one that is 10-50.
Quality of glass does indeed make a HUGE difference! No doubt about it!!
But when your shooting a 223 and need to see the bullet hole, you'll quickly want more magnification!
You can always turn it down for mirage and such.
Unless it's a fixed power scope, the magnification can be turned down.
For hunting i use 4-12 and 4-16 power scopes.
For match shooting i have 2 that are 4-20 power, and one that is 10-50.
Quality of glass does indeed make a HUGE difference! No doubt about it!!
But when your shooting a 223 and need to see the bullet hole, you'll quickly want more magnification!
You can always turn it down for mirage and such.
I think I have found a reason for me to crank up magnification.
I have been dial in corrections on turrets. With that low magnification has worked pretty well. All my scopes have had simple reticles, duplex, mil-dot, moa hash etc.
I recently purchased a FFP scope with Christmas tree reticle, and started practicing holding over using the reticle. I found it rather difficult to make out reticle hashes at 10x. Much better at 12x. Again it is not about seeing the target. I can see where I want to hit even at 4x. It is probably issue specific to FFP. Reticle remains the same in SFP.
I started liking holding over with reticle. It is fast and perhaps more accurate as it doesn't have tracking errors.
-TL
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I have been dial in corrections on turrets. With that low magnification has worked pretty well. All my scopes have had simple reticles, duplex, mil-dot, moa hash etc.
I recently purchased a FFP scope with Christmas tree reticle, and started practicing holding over using the reticle. I found it rather difficult to make out reticle hashes at 10x. Much better at 12x. Again it is not about seeing the target. I can see where I want to hit even at 4x. It is probably issue specific to FFP. Reticle remains the same in SFP.
I started liking holding over with reticle. It is fast and perhaps more accurate as it doesn't have tracking errors.
-TL
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Kreyzhorse
New member
Give me a 4X or 6X and I'm good to go... anything higher and I can't deal with the shakes I cause. Sometimes less is more.
That's what I have been doing. 4x fixed mostly. I also have 10x fixed for center fire longer range target shooting. Even with variable power I usually keep it unchanged below 10x.Give me a 4X or 6X and I'm good to go... anything higher and I can't deal with the shakes I cause. Sometimes less is more.
-TL
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It's like anything else, use the right tool for the job. I use my 24X for precision shooting. Normally I'll shoot the individual 1" squares on zeroing target, starting upper right going through to the left bottom. This lets me see where the temperature of the barrel and rifle come into play, or wind or whatever.
Sometimes I will use the boxes on a zeroing target to spell words to entertain the kiddies.
For practical purposes such as hunting, 24X is too much where I hunt these days. But long distance in a hide over open ground? Which vertebre do you want to shoot? Drops them dead on the spot, should be relatively painless and doesn't waste an ounce of meat. It's important to be accurate with a neck shot, don't want to miss and hit the throat.
Sometimes I will use the boxes on a zeroing target to spell words to entertain the kiddies.
For practical purposes such as hunting, 24X is too much where I hunt these days. But long distance in a hide over open ground? Which vertebre do you want to shoot? Drops them dead on the spot, should be relatively painless and doesn't waste an ounce of meat. It's important to be accurate with a neck shot, don't want to miss and hit the throat.
Picked up on ebay an used valiant lynx 4x32 AO with illuminated mildot reticle for $40. It is a brand from Czech republic. The scope was made in China. The optics is top-notch clear. Exposed turrets have very nice tight clicks. Tracking seems good too.
Originally I plan to mount it on another .22lr rifle. I will save it for better use.
I now own 3 scopes with fixed magnification; 2 4x and 1 10x. They work great.
-TL
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Originally I plan to mount it on another .22lr rifle. I will save it for better use.
I now own 3 scopes with fixed magnification; 2 4x and 1 10x. They work great.
-TL
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