As per title: I was snooping around and found the wikipedia entry on 9x23 Winchester, and it intrigued me. This seems like such an intuitive and sensible thing to do, why didn't this caliber take off? No compromise in mag capacity...Velocities and energies look great, and it would certainly comfort those who worry that anything less than a 45 isn't enough. With all the +P+ type loads out there, it's clear that many people want more power from their 9mm... so what happened? Who dropped the ball here, the ammo people, the gun makers, or the consumers? It occurs to me that introducing a new handgun cartridge during the Clinton administration might not have been a good plan. Thoughts?
Why didn't 9x23 Win. Take Off?
- Thread starter Daekar
- Start date
More potent than the 38Super.
What killed it was the combination of the 10rd mag limit going away plus the rise of the .40 and 357Sig that basically take you to the same place with a shorter grip frame.
The 9x23 was an attempt to maximize the 1911 with 10rd mags. It could "make major" for competition, had enough gas pressure to run a comp properly and made for a single-column 10rd gun. But once the 10rd mag limit ended, competition with 1911-class guns divided into single-stack 45s and double-stack 40s and 45s. The 9x23 in the middle was left with no place to go.
What killed it was the combination of the 10rd mag limit going away plus the rise of the .40 and 357Sig that basically take you to the same place with a shorter grip frame.
The 9x23 was an attempt to maximize the 1911 with 10rd mags. It could "make major" for competition, had enough gas pressure to run a comp properly and made for a single-column 10rd gun. But once the 10rd mag limit ended, competition with 1911-class guns divided into single-stack 45s and double-stack 40s and 45s. The 9x23 in the middle was left with no place to go.
It was marketed for competition rather than as a semi-auto replacement for the .357mag revolver for self defense or law enforcement.
The 125gr 9x23 is hotter than either the Super or the 357Sig with similar weight factory loads and actually replicates the stand by .357 mag 125gr JHP load at 1450fps.
Then they were able to make major power factor using 9x19. And 9x23 is not that different from 38 super, at least in IPSC Open guns. Looks more like a Winchester proprietary cartridge to compete with 38 super and its variants. Oh, and 9x23 is rimless and 38 super is semi-rimless and a real rimless may feed a little easier.
Capacity - holds less rounds than a 38 super in a same sized gun. Plus, I hear they were a handful to shoot and burned barrels (or was it comps?). For those who do not know, 9x25 is a 10mm necked down to 9mm, kindof like 357sig magnum.
Lee
goodspeed(TPF)
New member
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Quick, close this thread before it fills up with a bunch of crap.
NoSecondBest
New member
No one's mentioned the 9x21 here. A lot of competition shooters use the 9x21 and it makes major power. That being the case, where does that leave the 9x23? I had a 9x23 I was using in competition and it just didn't do anything the 9x21 could do just as easily. I switched to the 9x21 and it was easier finding brass, worked well with a good comp, and recoil was mild.
9x21 was created for, and used in, countries which ban civilian ownership of military cartridges, like 9x19. It became common in competition because the competition rules said you are not allowed to score major power factor with 9x19, but 9x21 was allowed. However, 9x21 OAL is the same as 9x19, and factory ballistics are the same as 9x19. Then the rules changed, and said, yes, 9x19 is ok to score major, so 9x21 became less common.
Lee
Lee
hardworker
New member
The same reason many cartridges never take off. If LE or Govt does not adopt a cartridge people usually don't either. Without the huge govt contracts for ammunition to keep production high and prices low, production stays so low that it needs to be sold at higher prices to make a profit. Why buy a gun that shoots oddball expensive ammo when there's plenty of "cheaper" ammo for other guns?
Major power factor today is only 165. Not too many years ago it was 175, and before that, 185 (divide 185,000 by 115 grains, and tell us if you think 9mm can safely make it!). I think IPSC major is only 160, so yeah, 9mmP can safely make major today, but it wasn't always the case.
oneounceload
Moderator
It is my understanding that it is popular in Europe because many countries do not allow "civilians" to own 9 X 19 pistols
Stevie-Ray
New member
Good to know. Back when I was interested, it was 175. I had two loads for my gun, a 185 gr practice load and a 200 gr major.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Yeah, but I have full faith: someone will come up with the 9 x 24 before long. The gun magazines will be packed with stories about it. It will be the darling of the SHOT show. Glock will come out with something for it. The West Sneeze, Missouri PD will adopt it. Taurus will follow Glock's lead. Threads will be started. Feelings will be hurt.