Why did the large bore DA revolver go out of fashion?
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S&W Kinda Guy
New member
Theres the S&W 500 Magnum and the Magnum Research BFR, Taurus also makes a 500 Magnum. Theres also the Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan in .454 casull.
I assume you mean large bore for hunters and outdoorsmen. It doesnt really seem they are out of fashion to me.
I assume you mean large bore for hunters and outdoorsmen. It doesnt really seem they are out of fashion to me.
carguychris
New member
Amongst the police and general shooting public, they were never really in fashion in the first place. This is why the Colt New Service had a relatively brief lifespan compared to the S&W N frame, and S&W was only able to sell roughly 65,000 civilian-model N frames prior to WWII. In comparison, S&W sold almost a million .38Spl medium-frame revolvers during this same period. (To be fair, both companies sold several hundred thousand military big-bore models during this era, and the fact that many of these guns hit the surplus market probably hurt sales of the civilian models. This factor, however, cannot account for the anywhere near the entire sales discrepancy.)
Reasons they were never "stylish"? They're big, heavy, and clumsy guns that fire relatively expensive, heavy, and space-hogging ammunition. Furthermore, people had lower expectations regarding cartridge power; as pointed out in the prior thread, .32 Long and .32ACP were widely considered to be perfectly adequate for LE and SD use prior to WWII. Also, handgun hunting was unusual during this time, so the inability to take down large game was not a factor for the vast majority of handgun buyers.
Reasons they were never "stylish"? They're big, heavy, and clumsy guns that fire relatively expensive, heavy, and space-hogging ammunition. Furthermore, people had lower expectations regarding cartridge power; as pointed out in the prior thread, .32 Long and .32ACP were widely considered to be perfectly adequate for LE and SD use prior to WWII. Also, handgun hunting was unusual during this time, so the inability to take down large game was not a factor for the vast majority of handgun buyers.
If I was a LEO, I sure would not want to lug some 45+ oz monster wheel gun around all day. Not to mention have to deal with the recoil from a .460, .500 or other such beast while a badguy empties a 17 round 9mm magazine at me. And departments would go broke buying ammo just for training, let alone actual carry.
The big hand cannons are a lot of fun, and great for some hunting and such, but for a daily carry defense gun, they are just not remotely practical.
My 6" GP100 weighs 45.5oz empty, and it's "only" a .357
On your hip all day, it gets heavy (when I take it in the woods, I usually use a chest rig for that reason).
The big hand cannons are a lot of fun, and great for some hunting and such, but for a daily carry defense gun, they are just not remotely practical.
My 6" GP100 weighs 45.5oz empty, and it's "only" a .357
On your hip all day, it gets heavy (when I take it in the woods, I usually use a chest rig for that reason).For police use, large bore DA revolvers were never particularly popular to begin with. Most police departments of any size issued either .32 or .38 caliber revolvers for the first half of the 20th Century and .38 Special or .357 Magnum revolvers up until the late 80's and early 90's. Prior to the 1890's, armed police were relatively rare in cities of any size.
For military use, large bore DA revolvers were pretty much replaced by semi-automatics. The U.S. replaced their Colt M1909 New Service revolvers in 1911. Likewise, most of Europe had replaced their revolvers by the 1930's. The British were the last holdouts retaining their big bore Webley Mk. VI revolvers until the 1920's and their .38 Caliber Enfield No. I Mk. II* and Webley Mk. IV revolver until the 1960's. While they were officially replaced by the Tokarev TT-30 and TT-33, the Russians did still use large numbers of their M1895 Nagant revolvers during WWII. Actually, most of the European revolvers that were replaced weren't even bigbores. Most of them used calibers ranging from 7.5 to 11mm. The Europeans, for the most part, abandoned bigbore everything with the advent of smokeless powder.
For military use, large bore DA revolvers were pretty much replaced by semi-automatics. The U.S. replaced their Colt M1909 New Service revolvers in 1911. Likewise, most of Europe had replaced their revolvers by the 1930's. The British were the last holdouts retaining their big bore Webley Mk. VI revolvers until the 1920's and their .38 Caliber Enfield No. I Mk. II* and Webley Mk. IV revolver until the 1960's. While they were officially replaced by the Tokarev TT-30 and TT-33, the Russians did still use large numbers of their M1895 Nagant revolvers during WWII. Actually, most of the European revolvers that were replaced weren't even bigbores. Most of them used calibers ranging from 7.5 to 11mm. The Europeans, for the most part, abandoned bigbore everything with the advent of smokeless powder.
22-rimfire
New member
It is a difficult question to answer and I'm not exactly sure what the question really is. Here goes....
If the western movies are anywhere close to accurate, the 45LC (and other 45ish calibers) was commonly used by law enforcement and the military as well as the civilian population until double action revolvers started showing up around 1890. The single action revolvers were expensive, so many carried older cap and ball revolvers and shotguns that were commonly used during the Civil War. New stuff always cost more than the old stuff especially when it was a big improvement in design and function over what was available to that time. The first revolver to really function well was probably the Colt Single Action, the gun that "won the west".
The 38 caliber revolvers started out as military revolvers and then moved to law enforcement. These were calibers in the 38spl-ish caliber mostly and were used in the new double action revolvers. Double action revolvers really weren't very reliable until the early 1900's. They provided rapid fire, a caliber sufficiently large for defensive use, and placed in a smaller lighter double action platform primarily by Colt and Smith & Wesson. They were easier to master than the larger caliber platforms of that time.
A lot changed with the introduction of smokeless powder. Smokeless gun powder was more powerful and safer than black powder. A lot of the black powder cartridges gradually faded away. Things like the 45-70 are stilll with us. Smokeless powder allowed for practical powered firearms in the 32-38 range.
The US military switched to the 45 ACP caliber after observing the poor preformance of the 38's in the Phillipines. That is why the Colt 1911 came about and was popularized in two world wars, but primarily only WWII.
Police stuck with the 38 and 32's in their handguns.
The 357 mag was introduced around 1934 and was developed for police use probably due to prohibition related law enforcement and the ability of the caliber to penetrate car doors and so forth. The 357 mag revolvers were dubbed the most powerful handguns in the world at the time. You can see this in old advertising even into the 1950’s and until the 44 magnum was introduced in 1955.
Revolvers were very popular until introduction of the Glock 9mm. That gun changed the world of law enforcement. Departments rapidly changed from revolvers to semi-auto pistols due to capacity and probably weight.
So between about 1990 and 2000, revolvers were very cheap and not very popular. Colt essentially died during the mid-1980's. Smith & Wesson was having problems and was sold. Prices on revolvers increased substantially between 1975 and 1985 due primarily to inflation. You add in the lower cost of the new wonder 9mm's and the failure of especially Colt to modernize, you have problems for these companies heavily depandant on revolver sales.
You saw a resurgence of interest in revolvers after 1995-2000. The interest was focused on hunting applications at first, and then concealed carry legality started becoming more common place in the early 2000's. Small revolvers were of particular interest as they are viewed as a non-technical firearm.
The hunting and sporting application for revolvers has been steadily becoming more common and popular. This "need" sparked such calibers as the 454, 480, 475, 460 and 500. But there has always been a certain facination with larger bore revolvers (and calibers). They just are not the mainstay of production.
If the western movies are anywhere close to accurate, the 45LC (and other 45ish calibers) was commonly used by law enforcement and the military as well as the civilian population until double action revolvers started showing up around 1890. The single action revolvers were expensive, so many carried older cap and ball revolvers and shotguns that were commonly used during the Civil War. New stuff always cost more than the old stuff especially when it was a big improvement in design and function over what was available to that time. The first revolver to really function well was probably the Colt Single Action, the gun that "won the west".
The 38 caliber revolvers started out as military revolvers and then moved to law enforcement. These were calibers in the 38spl-ish caliber mostly and were used in the new double action revolvers. Double action revolvers really weren't very reliable until the early 1900's. They provided rapid fire, a caliber sufficiently large for defensive use, and placed in a smaller lighter double action platform primarily by Colt and Smith & Wesson. They were easier to master than the larger caliber platforms of that time.
A lot changed with the introduction of smokeless powder. Smokeless gun powder was more powerful and safer than black powder. A lot of the black powder cartridges gradually faded away. Things like the 45-70 are stilll with us. Smokeless powder allowed for practical powered firearms in the 32-38 range.
The US military switched to the 45 ACP caliber after observing the poor preformance of the 38's in the Phillipines. That is why the Colt 1911 came about and was popularized in two world wars, but primarily only WWII.
Police stuck with the 38 and 32's in their handguns.
The 357 mag was introduced around 1934 and was developed for police use probably due to prohibition related law enforcement and the ability of the caliber to penetrate car doors and so forth. The 357 mag revolvers were dubbed the most powerful handguns in the world at the time. You can see this in old advertising even into the 1950’s and until the 44 magnum was introduced in 1955.
Revolvers were very popular until introduction of the Glock 9mm. That gun changed the world of law enforcement. Departments rapidly changed from revolvers to semi-auto pistols due to capacity and probably weight.
So between about 1990 and 2000, revolvers were very cheap and not very popular. Colt essentially died during the mid-1980's. Smith & Wesson was having problems and was sold. Prices on revolvers increased substantially between 1975 and 1985 due primarily to inflation. You add in the lower cost of the new wonder 9mm's and the failure of especially Colt to modernize, you have problems for these companies heavily depandant on revolver sales.
You saw a resurgence of interest in revolvers after 1995-2000. The interest was focused on hunting applications at first, and then concealed carry legality started becoming more common place in the early 2000's. Small revolvers were of particular interest as they are viewed as a non-technical firearm.
The hunting and sporting application for revolvers has been steadily becoming more common and popular. This "need" sparked such calibers as the 454, 480, 475, 460 and 500. But there has always been a certain facination with larger bore revolvers (and calibers). They just are not the mainstay of production.
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Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
New member
I was in Califunnyia about 2 months back, and went to a Gran Prix race in down town Long Beach.
We were guests of a tire manufacture - Falken - that my son's company deals with, so after a very nice lunch we were about ready to head back to the grand stands when I spotted a Long Beach police officer and his partner, talking to some other people.
Well right off I saw this big wheel gun on the officer's hip, so I stuck around to talk to him.
I handn't even gotten "the question" out of my mouth before he finished it for me.
Apparently I wasn't the only one asking, but he was pack'in a 45 "Long Colt" in a big Smith.
Said it was his weapon of choice and that he shot it well.
Apparently the department did not force the officers to standardise on side arms.
One sad thing about sidearm selection is, many officers are not "shooters" as we would normally think of shooters. They shoot only because it is a required part of the job and not out of enjoyment for the sport.
As a shooter, I find it sad to say I have personally know some of these folk.
But the bad part of it is, this at times brings marginal firearms into play simply because of ease of use by "non-shooters", rather then a consideration for effectiveness which should be foremost in consideration.
I know it is not a wheel gun, but I have heard for years how hard a 45acp was to control. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!! For the life of me, I can not understand how this very false story ever got started other then for a non shooter anything bigger then a cap gun has one whale of a HUGE AMOUNT of recoil.
Keep em coming!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
We were guests of a tire manufacture - Falken - that my son's company deals with, so after a very nice lunch we were about ready to head back to the grand stands when I spotted a Long Beach police officer and his partner, talking to some other people.
Well right off I saw this big wheel gun on the officer's hip, so I stuck around to talk to him.
I handn't even gotten "the question" out of my mouth before he finished it for me.
Apparently I wasn't the only one asking, but he was pack'in a 45 "Long Colt" in a big Smith.
Said it was his weapon of choice and that he shot it well.
Apparently the department did not force the officers to standardise on side arms.
One sad thing about sidearm selection is, many officers are not "shooters" as we would normally think of shooters. They shoot only because it is a required part of the job and not out of enjoyment for the sport.
As a shooter, I find it sad to say I have personally know some of these folk.
But the bad part of it is, this at times brings marginal firearms into play simply because of ease of use by "non-shooters", rather then a consideration for effectiveness which should be foremost in consideration.
I know it is not a wheel gun, but I have heard for years how hard a 45acp was to control. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!! For the life of me, I can not understand how this very false story ever got started other then for a non shooter anything bigger then a cap gun has one whale of a HUGE AMOUNT of recoil.
Keep em coming!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
I will define "Large Bore" as larger than 38/.357. Shooting sports such as IHMSA helped to revive the big bore revolver much the same way Cowboy Action Shooting help to stimulate production of firearms tailored for that activity. But in the 1960s when I first got interested in firearms the Colt New Service was long out of production, the Ruger Redhawk and Dan Wessons were years away, S&W N-frames other than the M-27 and M-28 were pretty scarce. For a variety of reasons the M-58 never caught on. Ok, revolvers for Bullseye shooting were becoming passe. But it seems there was about a 25-30 year period when large bore DA revolvers were few and far between.
Shadi Khalil
New member
My gun store has a case full of them, all sorts of makes, calibers, sizes and shapes. I don't think they keep them there because they are pretty. Revolvers still sell very well, just look at how well smith and ruger do. Sure they have their limitations but I think their strong points out way them.
Kreyzhorse
New member
I don't think the issue is big bore in so much as the fact that revolvers went more or less out of fashion. It has nothing to do with the chamberings of those handguns but the guns themselves and their perceived weakness vs semi autos.
Rifleman1776
New member
Simple. SAs have become the weapon of choice because of firepower. They carry more rounds and shoot faster. Gotta keep up with what the bad guys have.
Mike Irwin
Staff
No one told me that they went out of fashion.
Then again, I wouldn't give a damn if they went out of fashion or not.
I've never followed trends.
And, if they're truly out of fashion, why the hell are N frame Smith & Wessons so darned expensive?
Then again, I wouldn't give a damn if they went out of fashion or not.
I've never followed trends.
And, if they're truly out of fashion, why the hell are N frame Smith & Wessons so darned expensive?
If I can throw out an analysis from my view, I blame ruger.
A DA revolver is more complex than a SA, and when you could buy a top quality ruger SA for less than a DA smith or colt, there was little encouragement to go the DA route. People in the 70s were still enamored of cowboys, and all through the 60s and 70s, people had chances to buy small and large bore cowboy reproductions by every **** company in europe. They had top quality repros brought in by interarms. They still had opportunities to buy other SA models, but the driving leader was the ruger SA model.
In the mean time, unless you were looking at the model 29, there was a dearth of top quality big bore DA models. Dan wesson wasn't a big player. The Colt .44 magnum, the super redhawk, they came out in the 80's IIRC, and were rather limited in availability for a while.
So, in my experience, until the mid 80s, you just weren't capable of getting the large bore DA. Prices were at a premium, and availability stunk.
During the 80s, lets face it, we were a more prosperous country, and a more prosperous group. We started spending. The silhouette shooters and hunters brought DA revolvers into greater availability. Gangster/pimp types started buying BIG DA revolvers, as a showy piece. (who can ever forget the scene in "Get Shorty? It did reflect reality.)
Since the 90s it does seem that there have been level sales, but the DA is still far behind the SA in popularity. I still hold the same two things accountable. Cowboys, and price of the product.
My observations.
A DA revolver is more complex than a SA, and when you could buy a top quality ruger SA for less than a DA smith or colt, there was little encouragement to go the DA route. People in the 70s were still enamored of cowboys, and all through the 60s and 70s, people had chances to buy small and large bore cowboy reproductions by every **** company in europe. They had top quality repros brought in by interarms. They still had opportunities to buy other SA models, but the driving leader was the ruger SA model.
In the mean time, unless you were looking at the model 29, there was a dearth of top quality big bore DA models. Dan wesson wasn't a big player. The Colt .44 magnum, the super redhawk, they came out in the 80's IIRC, and were rather limited in availability for a while.
So, in my experience, until the mid 80s, you just weren't capable of getting the large bore DA. Prices were at a premium, and availability stunk.
During the 80s, lets face it, we were a more prosperous country, and a more prosperous group. We started spending. The silhouette shooters and hunters brought DA revolvers into greater availability. Gangster/pimp types started buying BIG DA revolvers, as a showy piece. (who can ever forget the scene in "Get Shorty? It did reflect reality.)
Since the 90s it does seem that there have been level sales, but the DA is still far behind the SA in popularity. I still hold the same two things accountable. Cowboys, and price of the product.
My observations.
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
New member
Blame RUGER????
Well I can see your point, but?
I have had a number of Single Actions (SA) over the years, starting in the
60s. -- .22, 357 and 44s.
But now everything is Double Action (DA) other then some .22s and a 45acp. autos.
And, today, if I were to be given a number of handguns, NO cost - no obligation, lets just say 6, and I was allowed to pick my gifts from a large selection of both SA and DA firarms - all .357dia. or larger and of verious brands, ----------
Well my choice would first be Double Action, the brand RUGER.
I have an old Security Six - stainless - with many miles on it, smooth and sweet and a very smooth & strong Redhawk .44 who's steady diet is a 310gr. LBT ahead of 19gr. of AA #9.
Yes, I know others favor other brands and styles but over the years these selections have never given me any reason to be other then very satisfied with my choice.
Would I like something a bit larger to add to my hardware? For sure, a 454 RUGER Alaskan!
Large bore handguns are anything but out of style or favor!!!!!!!
Keep em coming!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Well I can see your point, but?
I have had a number of Single Actions (SA) over the years, starting in the
60s. -- .22, 357 and 44s.
But now everything is Double Action (DA) other then some .22s and a 45acp. autos.
And, today, if I were to be given a number of handguns, NO cost - no obligation, lets just say 6, and I was allowed to pick my gifts from a large selection of both SA and DA firarms - all .357dia. or larger and of verious brands, ----------
Well my choice would first be Double Action, the brand RUGER.
I have an old Security Six - stainless - with many miles on it, smooth and sweet and a very smooth & strong Redhawk .44 who's steady diet is a 310gr. LBT ahead of 19gr. of AA #9.
Yes, I know others favor other brands and styles but over the years these selections have never given me any reason to be other then very satisfied with my choice.
Would I like something a bit larger to add to my hardware? For sure, a 454 RUGER Alaskan!
Large bore handguns are anything but out of style or favor!!!!!!!
Keep em coming!
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot