Why "cocked & locked" ?

[Gonzo_308]

Was that a personal attack?

Your opinion ended in your initial post right here....

I have never seen how the "advantage" of having the hammer precocked overcomes the disadvantages of adding impediments to firing.

From there it turned into a rant about what some "crowd" and the DA issues you claim the decry.

Then, to top it off with sweet cream, you made some wise ass remark about this same "crowd" not heeding the warnings of the myriad of people who have died for the lack of ability to move their thumb.

You were offended, I explained how to avoid my offending you and then you came back for more.

I'm sorry if you're having a bad day, bad weekend or whatever. That doesn't give you free reign to spew crap.

 

[Handy]

The personal attack was yours. There's nothing in the forum rules that gives you room to call me naughty words when you disagree with a point I made, or how I made it. The only thing I'm offended by is your language and decorum. You have no right to speak to me or anyone else that way.


There was nothing insulting in my referring to those who are staunch supporters of condition 1 carry "the 1911 crowd". It is also completely factual to say that this group denies that any of them could possibly forget the safety, even as others are posting that they have.

You might also note that a number of people, including some 1911 shooters, AGREE with me. Please, throw out some kind words to them.

 

[Gonzo_308]

I never called you an ass but merely suggested you shouldn't be one.

further, an Ass is an animal and not a dirty word. It's a shortened derivitive of "Jackass"

I'm not sure what "group" you're referring to.

There are some people who shouldn't carry in condition 1.

I think that your last post says everything.

It is also completely factual to say that this group denies that any of them could possibly forget the safety

This is what the "1911 crowd" says.

well, then who are these people who say this?

even as others are posting that they have.

You might also note that a number of people, including some 1911 shooters, AGREE with me.

So, now we have a group that denies they could ever make a mistake and then a group agrees with you that it's possible and that's why they don't carry?

I mean, how many 1911 crowds can there be?

Beyond that, How many of this rapidly diminshing group of the "1911 crowd" have been killed because they couldn't get that thumb safety off?

My problem wasn;t with your opinion Handy, It's with your broad strokes that throw gross acusations to push your unsupported opinion.

I'm very haspy that there are many people who can admit to themselves they're not confident and capable of carrying in condition 1. That makes us all safer.

 

[briang2ad]

This thing got testy...

I just think that some people have talked themsleves into CL because some very expert gunfighters have gone that route, and sport shooters favor it - not because they are as proficient in that mode as they need to be in a gunfight. Gunfights, and range practise are related but quite different indeed. I believe that having no real impediments is an advantage to MOST people. While CL is very 'traditional', American (1911), and accurate for the range, it may not be the best for most folks.

 

[Dave Sample]

Condition one with a 1911 on your hip is the quickest gun to get into action for me. They are not for the faint of heart , however. I have not shot a 1911 for three years and Saturday I was invited to shoot a few stages with the Tyrone Regualtors down at my Ranch. I used two guns, the $225.00 Norinco and EAGLE 1. All of my motor skills are intact and I shot two stages clean and fast. There were four guns that I built there also and we all did a good job of shooting. EAGLE 1 did better than the Norinco, but it is set up for carry, so it did what I expected of it. I checked it to see if it were still sighted in and I hit a 2" chunk of a clay pidgon (SP?) at 40-50 yards with the first shot.
I am not bragging. I have put a half a million rounds through these guns in the last 50 years and the computer between my ears is programed to draw and fire at great speed.
Here is the Point. Training and practice is everything with a 1911. In a gunfight you will go on Auto Pilot and you will do what you have trained yourself to do. As the gun comes up, the safety goes down and when you aquire a target, the gun goes BANG. I am a Cocked and Locked 1911 Bigot.

 

[Handy]

Dave, you are ABSOLUTELY the type of person suited for this type of carry. Constant down pressure on the safety is all your thumb knows how to do, after years of presentations and rounds fired.

But, in the greater shooting world, you're also a rarity. I think the real question is WHEN does someone attain the level of automatic response your thumb now possesses?

 

[CastleBravo]

Probably the same time a DA/SA shooter can actually shoot remotely as well with DA as they do with SA.

 

[Gonzo_308]

A proper grip is a proper grip whether it be for a 1911 or a Glcok or a SIG or a P7! You learn muscle memory, it doesn't take 50 years to learn it either.

The most important thing I got from Dave's post was that after 4 years his body knew what to do!

That, my friends is amazing! And that probably came from 50 years.

Getting a 1911 into action is no different than a police officer recruit learning to draw from a level III holster. It takes muscle memory.

When someone mentioned the SA shooters probably aren't willing to practice I think they misunderstood the way a smooth presentation works.

It takes lots of practice to get a proper feel for getting the web of the hand on the grip safety and the thumb and trigger finger in the right spots too.

The SA gun is not a gun for a beginner or a person that wants to throw it in the sock drawer. That's what a good revolver or a gun with a simpler manual of arms is for.

That's my normal recommendation for people looking to get started. A nice K frame revolver.

I'm still puzzled about how a practiced shooter could miss a thumb safety on a race gun. Typically those things have extended controls.

The more common problem I hear about is people not getting that grip safety depressed.

 

[Handy]

Sean,

There is an actual difference between "as well" and "well enough". It doesn't take that much practice to get COM hits at combat ranges with a DA pistol.

I've even heard that people firing revolvers have to do it EVERY SHOT!

 

[Gonzo_308]

...I believe that having no real impediments is an advantage to MOST people. While CL is very 'traditional', American (1911), and accurate for the range, it may not be the best for most folks.

Briang2ad, THe thing is that with a consistant and proper presentation it doesn't matter what gun you have in your hand.

Drawing a SIG from a holster badly will be just as bad as drawing a 1911 from a holster badly.

A bad grip is a bad grip. On a proper draw the thumb is on the safety as the gun leaves the leather. The safety is off that quickly. It's a s natural as you getting your thumb in the right place to prevent the gun from jerking or twisting in your hand.

I think everyone should be that proficient with their carry gun no matter what the manual of arms is.

I also think everyone should practice a combat reload.

That's another thread though.

 

[CastleBravo]

I've even heard that people firing revolvers have to do it EVERY SHOT

Much easier, since the trigger pull they practice is actually consistent.

 

[Handy]

Ah, the "DAO is easier than DA/SA argument".

You really buy that? That the transition from DA to SA is so difficult that the next 14 SA shots are not worth having?

 

[IZinterrogator]

It doesn't take that much practice to get COM hits at combat ranges with a DA pistol.

Amen. While trying out my new Sigs, I tried yanking them out of their holsters and pulling the trigger as soon as I thought I was on target. So what if the first shot will hit the BG in the upper abdomen instead of the upper chest due to tremendous trigger jerking? The second shot went in the upper chest area just fine.

 

[litework]

So what if the first shot will hit the BG in the upper abdomen instead of the upper chest due to tremendous trigger jerking? The second shot went in the upper chest area just fine.

So long as you know your limitations and don't put one into an innocent. I'm sure you wouldn't do that...I just feel kind of weird when we talk about "accurate enough." It's funny that people mention forgetting to strike the safety when drawing under stress...I've seen more video documentation of troopers firing their weapons prematurely (ie. as soon as the gun gets out of their holster and well before it's close to being on target) with their DA/SA weapons under the stresses of engagement. Every weapon has its advantages and they also have their trade-offs. How a person copes with the trade-offs is probably more important than the training they receive to enhance the benefits.

Myself,I don't really see the need for DA/SA weapons. I own a few but don't carry them any longer. I like a safety, and I like to leave my finger in the same spot on the trigger when I shoot. As I've stated, I've used rifles my whole life...if there were true benefits to a weapon being DA/SA, I think there'd be more self defense rifles in that configuration. I know it's an apples to watermelons comparison, but a self defense rifle that could be used without a safety...would you buy it, be comfortable with it, and use it?

 

[Handy]

Litework,

The actual mechanics aside, I think your point about rifles is interesting if we observe that most military rifles (non-US) have trigger pulls closer to the DA range of 8 to 10 pounds - for every shot.

But your observation about watermelons is probably more accurate. Rifles simply aren't handled like pistols - where just picking one up involves putting your finger right near the trigger. So it probably isn't a useful comparison.



The observation that seems to pervade most posts is that either a DA or a SAO require training to insure proficiency. The difference, as I see it, is of determining proficiency for the very different skill sets involved. It is relatively easy to determine when you've trained enough to make a good shot with a DA trigger - the target tells you.

It is harder to tell when you've trained enough with a manual safety to know that it will never be missed. Dave Sample reached that point long ago. But there isn't a clear test that informs you that you're beyond forgetting.

I fear that many people drawn to cocked and locked carry have not crossed that threshold, and don't even realize it's there. Hence my take on manual safeties.

 

[Bullrock]

Every weapon has its advantages and they also have their trade-offs. How a person copes with the trade-offs is probably more important than the training they receive to enhance the benefits.

S'cuse me. I'm not an intellectual. What does your quote mean?

To qualify my question (I'm not being rude) if I carry cocked and locked, and you carry DOA with manual safety on, if confronted, we both have to flick down the safety before either gun goes bang...Right?

Thanks

 

[briang2ad]

Gonzo

My post and quotation was not about presentation or grip, but just the practiced 'muscle memory' to hit the safety vs. just pull - but your points are valid!

 

[Handy]

Bullrock, that's right, but why would anyone carry a DAO with a manual safety engaged? The point of DAO is that no safety is required.


The quote basically underlines the idea that the most important thing to train to is the gun's shortcoming, rather than just enjoying its good points.

In this case, that would be dealing with a manual safety or a heavy trigger, or just being able to clear the worst kind of jam the gun is capable of.


I agree with this in principle, but I also think that you can be so prepared for the unforseen and unlikely that you are unable to perform what is most likely: Draw and shoot.

 

[Bullrock]

Handy

Bullrock, that's right, but why would anyone carry a DAO with a manual safety engaged? The point of DAO is that no safety is required.

To answer your question...raises several other questions, and I gotta go watch the ballgame... But here tis!!!

I don't carry a DOA anymore. But when I did my first was a G26. I never was comfortable with that thing in my pants, so I used to carry with the chamber empty. I understand that was the trade off, but I didn't like the prospect of carrying with an empty chamber, so I traded in the G26 for a Millenium Pro (DOA) with a manual safety.

I then carried with one in the chamber, and the safety on...Another trade off. I don't carry my DOA anymore. It's usually my CZ P01, or USP C, decocked. So, I've trained myself to go with the long pull on the first shot, and SA on the rest, if necessary. Another trade off.

I'm also trained for cocked, and locked at night, safety on, flick, SA all the way.

From experience I know the bottom line is how I will react to the situation presented. I have confidence in my ability, use of my weapons, and training so that I don't worry much about benefits and trade offs...

Why waste your time when the Red Sox are at Toronto...

 

[Handy]

Bullrock,

Your post is an excellent example of why the current firearms glossary is so lacking.

A "true" DAO (Double Action Only, not Dead On Arrival) has exactly the same trigger pull as a DA/SA gun. Glocks and other similar guns use multiple springs to immitate the function of a DAO, but with a much ligher pull than full DA.

If you ever fired a Beretta or Sig DAO you'd see that there is no difference between them and the DA/SA guns until the second round was fired.