Why "cocked & locked" ?

[Padawan]

Hello all. I've been regularly visiting (and posting when I have a question or feel I can contribute) TFL for a while now, and of course I occasionally come across posts discussing carrying weapons "cocked & locked".

First, my understanding of this term is a weapon with a round in the chamber, the hammer physically cocked, and the safety on (condition 1?).

Clearly, this makes sense to me from a readiness standpoint for someone who is carrying a SA weapon such as a 1911, but with the majority of current weapons being DA/SA, I don't see the real advantage.

My time here at TFL and my common sense tells me that proper training with a DA/SA auto includes familiarity with both the DA pull and the SA pull. Because of this, someone proficient with his weapon should be acceptably effective in a defense situation even if his DA/SA pistol is not cocked at the time he must use it.

I suppose the most frequent example I've seen of the issue I'm referring to is those who prefer to carry a DA/SA USP "cocked & locked". As you all know, this weapon has a de-cocker as well as a manual safety, giving the option of carrying with a chambered round with or without the hammer "cocked & locked". Would carrying something like the USP de-cocked not be a safer alternative, yet still render the weapon useful for defense purposes if needed? Is there any advantage of the "condition 1" state that I haven't considered here?

This is just something I've always been curious about, and there is undoubtedly some information that I've overlooked, so I thought I would bring up the topic to hear from those who carry in various "conditions".

 

[Zekewolf]

Speed=life/death.

 

[Dwight55]

Padawan, . . . Yes your understanding of condition 1 is correct.

I am no expert in firearms, but I do have an example of each type of weapon you mention.

One available weapon is a Springfield stainless 1911, single action, .45 ACP; the other is a P89 Ruger 9mm.

When carried in condition 1, the 1911 needs unholstered, grip safety depressed, thumb safety removed, and trigger pulled in order to fire. My first shot will virtually always be within a 6 in circle out to 20 feet, . . . it will be quickly fired, . . . and I can trust it.

With the P89, . . . because the first shot is double action, . . . a much longer and more difficult trigger pull is mandated, . . . my first shot may/may not be where it should be. In defense of the P89, . . . it'll put all subsequent shots in the plate, . . . but I personally want that first one there, . . . every time.

Thus, my reasoning for a single action, . . . it all boils down to only having to be proficient in one trigger scenario, . . . all the rest of the actions are rote, having been "practiced" to the degree that I don't worry about any of the other actions: my focus is on "acquire target" and "decision: shoot/don't shoot".

I cannot speak for other weapon systems, but the Ruger P89 can only be carried (if it has one in the tube) in one of two ways:

Condition zero: ready to fire, just pull the trigger because the decocker is set to firing position and the hammer is pulled back (only a nut case would carry this weapon this way)

Or it can be carried in what I would consider condition 2 (hammer down, but decocker engaged so it only takes a double action trigger pull to put out the first round). The "safety" on this firearm is the decocker set in the "down" or "non firing" position, . . . and again, . . . my opinion is that it shouldn't be carried this way.

I do believe that the DA/SA system is good, and has a place, . . . mostly with LEO's who do not have the time, training, or inclination to become proficient with their sidearm. For personal carry, . . . 1911 every day, . . . all the way.

May God bless,
Dwight

 

[sageowl]

Generally speaking, and the HK being the notable exception, you won't carry a DA/SA gun "cocked & locked." All the DA/SA guns I have, again with the exception of the HK, don't have manual safeties - therefore if I were to carry them in SA, they'd be "cocked and unlocked." This would be asking for problems, to say the least, but I'd imagine most reading this already know that.

On the other hand, there's no other sane way to carry an SA gun such as a 1911, a Hi-Power, and so on. Chambering a round and manually lowering the hammer is risky business and I would stay away from that at all costs. Carrying a full mag without one chambered is asking to get shot, as it requires at least partial presentation of the firearm, safety deactivation, and a nice loud slide-racking prior to being ready to use. As most handgun incidents are "over before they start" (realistically something like "over in the blink of an eye" would be a better cliche), having to announce yourself as a threat while remembering "unholster, safety, rack (or cock hammer), present, aim, fire" seems suboptimal, at best. Carrying cocked and locked is a much better option - draw, safety off (which becomes part of the draw motion fairly easily), aim, fire. The fact that you get an extra round by carrying n + 1 is also worthy of note.

The HK USP is an interesting beast. Ultimately, it comes down to how much you trust the manual safety, and how you prefer to carry. The HK allows you to pick which method you're more comfortable / familiar with, which is actually a pretty big step towards a highly versatile gun. I've never carried my USP cocked & locked, nor do I intend to. This is probably personal preference, as I'm primarily a SiG guy, but that's just my opinion. Dissenting opinions are welcome and expected, especially from more 1911-ish folks than myself.

I have carried it safety-off in the past after long stints of carrying nothing but SiGs, lest I forget to flip the switch and wind up in a new red puddle as a result. Ultimately I find DA/SA a better system than manual safety over SA trigger, as there's less potential for error (i.e. accidental safety disengage, accidental / uncontrolled discharge when expecting DA and getting SA trigger pull instead, and so on). For those that carry primarily SA (ala 1911), then there's some virtue in having the option on the HK, I just haven't deveoped that trust in the mechanism required to C&L carry it.

So, with the exception of the HK "hybrid," each carry method has its own distinct place - C&L for the SA's, and chamber-loaded decocked for DA/SA. Choose what you're comfortable with on the HK, but keep in mind that decocked with safety on will be safest option.

 

[Handy]

I can think of three or four DA/SA guns that can be carried condition 1. HK, Taurus, CZ, Arcus, Browning, Witness, SP-21...

That being said, I agree with you, Padawan. I have never seen how the "advantage" of having the hammer precocked overcomes the disadvantages of adding impediments to firing.


The Cocked and Locked crowd makes much of the deliterious effects on first shot accuracy a DA trigger causes. But if you witness SEALs, SAS or many IDPA shooters perform with speed and precision on Sigs, Berettas and S&Ws it makes you wonder if they are just unwilling to practice.


In the end, both systems have been shown to be viable, and the instances of those killed with their safeties still on doesn't seem to make any impression on the cocked and locked gang. That could never happen to them!

 

[shield20]

I am very proficient with a DA/SA - Berettas specifically, and also do well with 1911s. After shooting my Colt for a while, and then going back to the Beretta - DA/SA does seem a bit...sloppier? That long DA 1st shot, followed by long and unprecise SA pulls is definetly more...awkward - and seems not as condusive to accuracy. I will still hit, but it does take some re-programming.

All those SA carriers who have been killed with their safeties on (?) makes me wonder if they just were unwilling to practice.

I think picking and sticking to one system, which ever you choose, and being super-proficient at it, is the way to go.

 

[Edward429451]

In the end, both systems have been shown to be viable, and the instances of those killed with their safeties still on doesn't seem to make any impression on the cocked and locked gang. That could never happen to them!

I agree both systems are viable if one trains with the particular system they have. If one trains with a DA/SA until its second nature, I don't see why it'd be slower than a C&L SA. Micro seconds maybe.

I dont have any DA autos of any breed. What I find oddish is that anyone could forget to release the safety on a C&L SA. I don't have to think about releasing the safety on my 1911, its second nature and happens automatically in the draw. I drove my wife nuts when I first got it. Going around the house making 10K presentations from leather. It burned it into muscle memory and I don't have to think about it at all. I've even tried to not release the safety on the draw and 9 out of 10 times it still releases. It takes a serious mental concentration to not release it and I don't even try it no more for fear of learning not to. I think that anyone who has forgot to release their safety has simply not trained enough with the SA pistol.

I submit that if your SA auto's safety does not release without concious thought, you need to train more & practice. (If your wife isn't making remarks to you about you going overboard with it, thats a clue too! )

 

[dairycreek]

Dear Padawan:

Clearly, this makes sense to me from a readiness standpoint for someone who is carrying a SA weapon such as a 1911, but with the majority of current weapons being DA/SA, I don't see the real advantage

When John Browning designed the original 1911 for the military he did not include the grip safety and intended that the pistol be carried "cocked and locked" with only the manual safety in place. It was the army who insisted on the addition of the grip safety because it felt that training soldiers who were unfamiliar with firearms was a safer proposition with both the grip and the manual safeties on the 1911.

Browning designed a purely combat weapon that could be deployed on the target and fired in the absoute least amount of time with maximum accuracy on that all important first shot. In the hands of a skilled user I submit that this is still the fastest way of getting off an aimed first shot. That remains the primary advantage of the 1911 as a combat weapon.

A lot of shooters (me for example) just can't get off that first double action shot with a DA/SA pistol with the same rapidity/accuracy of the SA pistol. I practice hard with both but the truly SA pistols wins out when speed and accuracy are of major concern. I know a lot of shooters who are in that category. So, the advantage for a "cocked and locked" SA pistol is just what it always was - first shot speed and accuracy.

 

[briang2ad]

Cocked and LOCKED

"What I find oddish is that anyone could forget to release the safety on a C&L SA."

I can, and I do. Either it is natural for you to put your thumb on the safe and disengage it OR you must train to do it ALL the time without fail. Then, hopefully, when your life is flashing before your eyes, you will instinctively do the same. Or you might end up dead - pulling the trigger, finding it locked, and doing further damage to your 'mindset' - too late.

I have personnally pulled, then pulled, then pulled REAL hard on a CL SA, only to say, "sheeeesh, I need to disengage the safety". And this, on a range - not with a BG coming at me. Now, again, if you are WELL trained and absolutely certain of your instincts, or better yet, have been in gunfights, and really know your limitations, CL SA might be best.

As for me, I will go DA. No impediments to prevent shooting. If it is close range, and I must act fast, I can hit easily with a smooth DA (CZ). If I have more time, and need more accuracy, I'll cock the hammer and fire SA the whole way.

I just think lots of folks equate range speed/practice with gunfight speed, and all things are not equal...

 

[litework]

The first guns I ever shot were rifles, and I started shooting when I was ten years old, learning from Boy Scouts and my father. I'm not familiar with any rifles that are DA/SA...so I could never get used to the idea of carrying a handgun that was.

The rifles I handled as a child and as an adult all were rightfully carried with the safeties on. I've taken some pretty fast shots on game and don't remember hitting the safety. I know it happens (forgetting the safety)...I've seen the documentation. I've seen it happen more with DA/SA guns than with 1911's though.

I own a few DA/SA guns, but prefer guns with the consistent trigger pull of a single action or, in rare cases, DAO. My USP 45 is carried cocked and locked.

 

[RsqVet]

I think that having nothing to flip off SA or DA safety for CCW has a lot of advantages --- my reasoning for this is that a fair number of self defense shootings ---- especally outside of the home -- are at contact distances b/c the bad guy already got the drop on you and you are in a rapidly losing or untenable physical confrontation i.e. already in a fight and contorted up as you draw, possibly with your weak hand.

 

[Bullrock]

The Cocked and Locked crowd makes much of the deliterious effects on first shot accuracy a DA trigger causes. But if you witness SEALs, SAS or many IDPA shooters perform with speed and precision on Sigs, Berettas and S&Ws it makes you wonder if they are just unwilling to practice.

I don't know if I am part of the cocked & locked crowd. I may be. I have posted about it. Although I almost never use that condition for carry, I do use it for home protection with reason.

First, I'm an old fart, and that really sucks (not qualified for the Navy Seals anymore). Second, after 3 eye operations, I don't see quite as well as I used to. Third, I'm at the range at least twice a week, and I do practice. Fourth, Every night I have to put medication in both eyes. Should a BG break in, I will hear him, or my little terrier will let me know. At that point I will be able to see OK, but with some shadows.

So my PT-92 with 17 in the magazine, and 1 in the chamber is within arms reach every night, cocked and locked! A flick of my right thumb, and I'm ready to go to work. BTW, I do know where the safety is...

I carry my CZ P01 and my USP C decocked. I also carry a wheelie during warm days. My wheelie is never cocked and locked I do work with double action pull with my autos, as well as, DA with my wheelies.

So I don't mind being cocked & locked, or even half cocked, if that's what I am....

 

[dasmi]

"What I find oddish is that anyone could forget to release the safety on a C&L SA."

I can, and I do. Either it is natural for you to put your thumb on the safe and disengage it OR you must train to do it ALL the time without fail.

Me to. That is why I am a revolver or Glock man. Pull trigger, bang. Simple. Don't pull trigger, no bang. Simple.

 

[MuthaGoose]

Like litework said above, it seems that a lot has to do with your learned personal preferences. Prior to shooting handguns, my "shooting" experience was with rifles, shotguns, and mechanical paintball markers. In all three cases, it's just one manual safety and one type of trigger pull.

I think that's why cocked-and-locked on the kimber 1911 and HK USP's felt the most natual at the range to me. All I had to do was flick the safety off, then shoot with one type of trigger pull. Same regimen as with the long guns and paintball markers.

 

[GoRon]

Since I changed my grip to a thumb on safety hold with my 1911, I don't even have to think about the safety.

The safety is off as the sights are lined up.

I can't do this with my PT-92 reliably. Even though it has simular set up for cocked and locked, I occasionaly push the safety/decocker too far down and start decocking the gun.

 

[Boss Spearman]

When I took my self defense/gun class, the instructor had me take an unloaded Glock and put it in a waist holster. He stood 20 feet away. He told me when he was going to run at me, and told me to draw the Glock and go through the racking motion of getting a shell into the chamber (still unloaded, just going through the motions) before he got to me. Even when he told me he was coming, I couldn't rack it before he was on me.
The moral of the story from the class was, if you're going to carry for self-defense, always carry one in the chamber ready to go, or else it may be too late when and if the time comes to need it.

 

[MoW]

Personally I think you should have it 2 different ways. For CCW it should have 1 in the chamber ready to go. At home I have the chamber empty but ready to rack with a full mag. The doors are always locked and at night the bedroom door is locked as well--plenty of time for me to reach over and rack my SIG

 

[MoW]

Now that I think back on my CW training, my instructor insisted that the best way(home invasion) to handle the situation is to rack the slide and loudly announce "I have a gun and the police are on the way". Since racking my slide with 1 already in the chamber would simply eject the bullet, I guess thinking back now he must have assumed that the guns would NOT have 1 in the chamber?! Of course the scenario would predicate the fact that I heard the BG and wouldn't apply where he had already entered the room

 

[cje1980]

Should a BG break in, I will hear him, or my little terrier will let me know. At that point I will be able to see OK, but with some shadows.

So my PT-92 with 17 in the magazine, and 1 in the chamber is within arms reach every night, cocked and locked! A flick of my right thumb, and I'm ready to go to work. BTW, I do know where the safety is...

Well if you have that much notice or warning of a threat then the difference between a SA or DA is non-existent because at the same time you can also cock the hammer on a DA and have the same exact weapon. This thread is about rapidly getting a weapon into action. A DA/SA is just like a revolver, except that it has an easier trigger pull after the first shot. From my shooting experience I haven't had any problems "transitioning" from the first shot to the second. I don't feel that there is a transition to be made. You just have to practice heavily on the DA pull and the SA is a lot easier for accurate shots. Every time I go to the range, I practice both DA and SA shots, and rapidly drawing and putting a bullet on target without the hammer cocked, then following up with SA pulls. At about 7yds. I can put 3 shots very close together and very quickly. It's all about practice. I would rather not have to worry about a safety in quick combat confrontation. I know that if I pull the trigger, my weapon is going to fire. Like RsqVet, if you have already been injured you might not be physically able to disengage the safety, without some dramatic hand maneuver or delay, rendering your weapon useless.

 

[Handy]

Dairy,

When John Browning designed the original 1911 for the military he did not include the grip safety and intended that the pistol be carried "cocked and locked" with only the manual safety in place.

This is incorrect. The manual safety was missing on every prototype up to and including the 1910. It seems Browning never intended the gun to be carried cocked and locked. The Army added first the grip safety, then finally the manual safety - approving the 1911 for adoption.

BTW, I've seen master level pin and IPSC shooters forget the safety. That makes an impression.