Why 357mag in a Snubby?

[Tom B]

Why does it seem nowadays that everyone has to have a minimum of 357mag cal in their snubs? Whats wrong with 38spl +P? I do not want to have to fire a 357 snub at close quarters or in an auto without hearing protection even in an emergency! Perhaps a different handgun purchase for deer hunting would be in order?

 

[Arub]

I bought one of my snubbies in .357 mainly for potential ease of resale. The .357 is more flexible when it comes to choices in ammo. Have no problems with carrying my other snubbie with .38s or +Ps, in fact, carry it more often because it is more concealable.

For me, I like shooting the magnums at the range, usually limited to a box or less at a shooting. Enjoy the feel of the power. After shooting shooting a few magnums, I switch back to .38s both for cost and comfort reasons.

 

[freddyfish]

in an emergency you won't care about the noise.

besides, if you don't hit them, you can knock them over with the muzzle blast... ;-)

hello, by the way.

 

[juliet charley]

I think I'm one of a small minority ("a voice crying in the wilderness") that really doesn't see a lot of use for .357 Magnum in the small concealable snubs (e.g., J-frames) particularly in the light and ultr-light offering. It fact, I think their use in most defensive scenarios could be counterproductive--in a small enclose room or the interior of car muzzle blast freddyfish was joking about could be as more incapacitating to you than your target.

With a .357 calibre snubbie, chances are you going to get .357 calibre holes in and .357 calibre holes out unless you go to the really hot .357 Magnums then you might get some limited expansion, but you give up a tremendous amount of speed, controllability and accuracy. I think the best option is a load with which you can make five very accurate .357 calibre holes very quickly.

Again, I know I'm out of step with the majority on this issue, but you did ask for opinions.

 

[Badger Arms]

I disagree to most of what is being said AGAINST the .357 in a snubbie. Personally, I don't own one. That's mainly a factor of already having a 642 wiht 38+p rating.

Why switch? If I didn't already own one, I'd certainly go for the little extra and get the .357. Muzzle flash difference between the two along with concussion, blast, recoil, etc. are not going to be contributing factors if you HAVE to use the gun. Modern .357 magnum loads will expand when fired out of snubbies, especially the lighter 110gr loads.

I'd preempt any criticism of the 357 on a few points. First, that if you shoot 38 through a 357 you will have troubles with the chambers down the road. True of competition guns, but of a gun that will likely have no more than 100 rounds through each chamber in the life of the gun it will be no problem.

Second, the .357 is uncontrollable in such a short, light gun. Again, I have to disagree. We're talking about an adrenalile-pumping life-or-death situation. Many dozens of factors are going to be more important.

I'd like to end this post by agreeing with ARUB that resale value is the key. No matter what we students of the gun say about expansion, flash, etc., the average consumer cares that he's buying a 357. If you EVER go to sell it, you'll have a much tougher time unless it is .357. Case-in-point, how much are .38 Ruger SP-101's going for now that they have the nearly IDENTICAL model in .357?

My advice is to buy the .357, shoot 357's and 38's out of it at the first shooting session and stick with what you like. In the end if you decide ever to sell it, that .357 will be worth more in resale value than it was in purchase price.

 

[chaim]

I don't really see the use of .357 in a snubby for most of the reasons already stated. It is often (not always) a bit bigger than its .38 caliber brother so you lose some concealability, it is usually more expensive and you will probably shoot .38s out of it anyway. The .357 does have too much recoil for quick follow up shots (out of a small framed 2" snub standard velocity .38s give about the same perceived recoil as .357s out of my 3" K-frame) and in some loadings more blast and muzzle flash than a .38 or .38+P.

However, I bought my first true snub yesterday (some do and some don't consider my 3" K-frame a snub) and it was a Taurus 605 (for those who don't know the 605 is the .357 version of the 85). I was looking at 85s for the reasons I gave above but ended up with the 605 for a few reasons. At least with the Taurus there wasn't really any difference in size. The only size difference was that the 605 comes with longer grips which give me someplace to put my pinky, a plus in my book, but the 85 and 605 can wear the same grips so if you want the lower profile grips you can buy them. The 605 in a blue finish was the same price as the 85 in stainless and since I prefer stainless in a matte finish (this was polished) I didn't really have a preference between the two. I will mostly shoot .38s but in a gun rated for .357 I know that I can shoot +Ps all I want without hurting the gun. It is just a little bit heavier than the 85, not so much that I couldn't carry it in a pocket, but enough that it will be more controllable and have quicker follow up shots when using .38+Ps. Not all .357 ammo produces more flash than .38s. In my 3" S&W 65 I've had more flash out of some .38+Ps than the Winchester USA brand (white box) .357s. While I wouldn't use .357 ammo for defensive use in a snubby, it will be nice to have it for fun at the range. Not everyone can handle magnums in that small a gun, but for me the reason to get it was the fun factor at the range, but when the gun is working it will be fed .38s and .38+Ps.

Will I get an 85 in the future? Yes. Do I see the reasons for .38s in a snub intstead of .357s? Yes. Can I understand buying a .357 instead? Yes.

So, while there are many good reasons not to use .357s out of a snubby for defensive use, the decision to get one or not can still rely on other factors. Do what is best for you, either way your choice may be fine.

 

[KSFreeman]

Why popular? No clue, but sell they do. And sell them the companies should.

I, IMHO, think it's part of the GSC syndrome. For some unknown reason people want to get real close with a handgun. [Clint Smith voice] "Yeah, I shot `em and set on fire." I've never understood how being deafened or blinded or both will help you win a fight.

In my experience, people who have not studied the problem think the noise or the flash does the killing and not the bullet and want something they think is noisy and flashy. I think these are the same guys who, as Uncle Mel would say, had flames painted on their cars.

Muzzle flash, recoil and noise come all factor into a shooting, especially those inside cars or dark stairways of parking garages. Since you are likely to be in very close proximity to the threat (if not in a wrestling match with the threat) you must factor in flash and blast just as you factor in unlocking a self-loader in a fight.

Different people have different perspectives. For example, the president of my gun club went to several shooting skuls including LFI-III with a pair of M66s in 2.5". (No night shooting though). On the other hand, I refuse to carry any ammo that I have not shot at night and know how loud it is.

First rule of gunfighting is have a gun. Where you go from there after you seek knowledge is up to you. The good part is you get to shoot a lot in order to figure it out.

 

[M1911]

Personally, I have no use for the lightweight .357s. I have a S&W Model 642. It's a 15 oz .38 Spcl. Loaded with 158 gr. .38 +P, it hurts to shoot. The Scandium model is a 16 oz .357 -- not for me, thank you very much. My 24 oz 3" Model 60 is more than a handful with .357.

Some folks say it's not an issue, because you won't notice the noise or recoil if you ever have to use it. Well, the problem is that snubbies are hard to shoot accurately. They have a very short sight radius and a minimal rear site. The only way to do become accurate and maintain that accuracy with a snubbie is if you practice a lot. And you're not going to practice a lot if the gun hurts to shoot. My 642 hurts enough that I seldom want to put more than 20 rounds through it at a time.

The main purpose of the very lightweight magnums seems to be to covert dollars into recoil. Personally, I say save your money and get a 642.

M1911

 

[C.R.Sam]

Without hearing protection......you are going to have perminant hearing loss regardless of caliber.

I don't mind carryin snubs. Any gun I am going to carry, I am going to shoot a lot. Therefore my carry guns will not be ultralights nor stainless. Blue steel lasts.

Sam

 

[22lovr]

My accidental discharge with a .357 snubby

I'm 56 years old and have been safely shooting firearms for the better part of 50 years. That is until about 3 months ago. I had an accidental discharge of a Georgia Arms full-pressure .357 round into the floor of my bedroom!! I was lucky-lucky and know it because it went harmlessly through the cut-pile rug with nary a ruffle and the JHP lodged itself in a floor joist. I was instantly incapacitated and disoriented. People, I was totally DEAF for about three days and my hearing didn't return to a semblance of normal for over a month. And, in fact, I may have damaged my hearing permanently which is not good for a middle-aged gent like myself.

I always doubled-up on hearing protecting when firing the .357 and now I know why. Human ears were not meant to absorb the OVERPOWERING CONCUSSIVE pressure of a .357 round fired in an enclosed area. (indoors, inside of a car)

I'm now looking at a .44 spcl for home defense/car glovebox and will keep the .357 for the great outdoors.

Can I get an "amen" on this? I feel sorry for anyone who is forced to shoot a .357 in an emergency inside of their home or in any other enclosed space. God forbid

 

[Scarborough]

A .38 special snub is adequate. My .357 Speed Six is however a fine self defense weapon. I use 158 gr. Federal Hydra-Shoks and get very good expansion and velocity in my own tests. With a Hogue nylon Monogrip the gun is quite controllable. I am of the opinion that a medium frame revolver is the way to go if you want a snub .357. Just don't make the mistake of assuming that those shorter barrels will handicap you in the velocity that a specific gun and load may produce.

 

[KSFreeman]

Amen, .22lovr. The guys that keep .357s (or .223s) on the nightstand must sleep in their ears or be really tough.

Sam, a couple of different cases where police wrestling over their own guns in enclosed spaces--car and check in area of county jail. Inside car, .45 discharged, no stunning impact like .22lovr mentioned. Inside jail, .357 discharges stunning copper and leaving him deaf in one ear.

I suppose that a .45 could have done that as well. However, IME and tests with decibels (no, not ten women from the South), and talking with ear docs, the .45 does not have the "crack" of the .357. Yes, both will damage your hearing--WHAT, type louder, Sam--inside a car ("It's going to get real rowdy."). Something to be aware of BEFORE the fight and factor in.

Forewarned is forearmed. Knowledge being power and all. YMMV, Just IMHO.

 

[juliet charley]

22luvr -

Thanks. That's exactly the point I was trying to make about the full-power .357 Magnum potentially being more decacipating to the user than than the target in any small enclosed space. It's nice to a "for example," who's been there, done that. I don't think many people who carry their 640's and SP101's stuffed 125-grain JHPs have any idea what's going to happen if they shoot it in a small room, stairwell or their cars without hearing protection.

 

[Bulldog44]

Thankfully I've never fired a firearm indoors, but I can imagine that both .357 Magnum and .44 Special would be rather rough on the ears.

.357 Magnum fired indoors would probably cause me to flinch every time a car backfires afterwards. There's no way I'd fire a .44 Magnum indoors except for self-defense purposes. I'd rather be deaf than dead.

 

[C.R.Sam]

Been in vehicle with doors and windows closed. .357mag full house discharge from inside. Loud yes. Perminant hearing loss in some frequencies...yes. Affected function....no.

Effect from .44special would be similar....some different frequencies killed but overall result will be loss of hearing. Not all hearing....just the frequencies that were somewhat over 120dba from the shot.

Sam

 

[provalov]

Badger Arms: In your post you said: "if you shoot 38 through a 357 you will have troubles with the chambers down the road."

As a new owner of a 357 Blackhawk, I'd sure appreciate more details on the problems I'll have with the chambers if I shoot 357mag and 38 chronically in the same gun. Thanks.

 

[Badger Arms]

My only AD ever was a 22lr from an FTL Auto-Nine pistol. The darn thing had a broken extractor and I skipped the visual check of the chamber. Never found the casing or the bullet hole but I didn't forget to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction... in this case the floor.

As for hearing loss, this was in a concrete garage and I went deaf for about 10 seconds. No ill effects. I'd imagine the 357 would be much more damaging. Never tried it.

I'm not quite sure what the point of this noise discussion is. Are we seriously talking about switching to lower pressure, longer barreled CCW's? Why not switch to Walther PPK's in .32? Could shoot them all day long. I'm willing to trade a little temporary deafness for my LIFE!

As for those who are saying that muzzle blast, flash, and concussion don't kill, you're right. What you might have overlooked is that the bullet doesn't generally stop the perpetrator either. Usually, even fatal shots from most calibers take some time to drain enough blood from the shootee to render them unable to function.

It is the blast, concussion, and flash that alert the conscious mind that something VERY BAD has just happened. It's a mental cue that tells them they are or soon will be dead. There are numerous documented cases of diminished cognitive function like drug users will absorb multiple shots and continue to fight. That very fact was the reason for the switch to 45 caliber. The 45 and today's .357 are capable of PHYSICALLY incapacitating the perpatrator. Not only will they cause a massive loss of blood and tremendous tissue damage, but the report from the gun will let those in possession of their faculties know they've just been shot!

To conclude, while the muzzle flash, noise, and concussion will not kill, they are more likely to STOP a perpatrator than, for instance, a suppressed weapon or one that produces less of these effects.

 

[Tom B]

The point of the original question is - Doesn't one feel safe with the 38spl cal in a carry gun? At one point in time NYPD was getting 78% one shot stops with 38spl revolvers when they were the issue handgun. This looks pretty good to me. Is the 38spl a dying round to be replaced by the 357? I have looked at 44 and 45LC cals but check on ammo availability and prices compared to 38/357. I don't reload and I like to shoot my guns a lot. 10mm factory ammo is much more available than 44spl. I really think the 38spl is a very underated cal nowadays.

 

[22lovr]

Hey Badger Arms: What part of Washington state??

Our home for 11 years was on the Samammish Plateau east of Seattle and, to this day, consider it the finest place I've ever lived.

When I moved up there, the only business on the plateau was Sadlier's Country Store. Now, it looks like Bellevue, has it's own zip code and is incorporated into the City of Samammish. Too many other people liked it as much as we did and that is what bespoiled it.

You're right about the .357 round. I may never have to shoot mine again in self-defense but you know what? It's kinda like pounding your finger with a hammer.......as you ask yourself "Did THAT hurt? Wanna do it again??" NOT EXACTLY. You know what I mean? ("scuse me, Mr. home invader, while I put this ear protection on before I drill you")

As for shooting the mighty .357 at the range - Maybe I'm a bit of a nut case but I thoroughly enjoy all of the sensations that most others find discomforting: The more kick/recoil, Blast/noise, and muzzle/gap flash the more thrill I get out of it.

 

[chaim]

As for shooting the mighty .357 at the range - Maybe I'm a bit of a nut case but I thoroughly enjoy all of the sensations that most others find discomforting: The more kick/recoil, Blast/noise, and muzzle/gap flash the more thrill I get out of it.

YES!!! Someone who isn't embarassed to admit it. I feel EXACTLY the same. I love shooting .357s out of my .357s (as of today I am in possession of my Taurus 605) at the range. Great fun (even the 605 snub was fun with .357s, though I wouldn't want to shoot more than one box at a time). However, since I don't hunt (for which the .357 is a good handgun round) the only place I use the .357 round is at the range. For defensive purposes I use .38s and .38+Ps out of my .357. Even when I move to a CCW state I will probably do the same in case it is needed in the car or indoors.