Who will stand up for gun rights when the SHTF?

[Wildalaska]

Perhaps the Turner Diaries would enlighten you in some aspects as to what our Gov't is becomeing.

Come on Nuke, if ya want to read something to enlighten you about government...why dont you pick, o say Arther Herman's How the Scots Invented the Modern World, or McCauleys History of England or the Federalist papers or the Decline and fall of the Roman Empire or Santayana, Freud, Paine, Spengler, Marx, Engels, Bakunin... instead of cheap rascist, anti semitic, poorly written fiction that purports to be a series of great truths but is little more than the cancerous vomit of a twisted and diseased mind. I wont even get into it's role as the laid out Mein kampfish program so loved by our looney right "allies" in the gun movement.

The Turner Diaries are the last thing in the world you want to bring into an intellectual debate. Thats like going to a Stephen Hawking Lecture and finding that the program has been replaced by Astroboy Manga.

WildenoughalreadyAlaska

 

[Mannlicher]

it appers that Wildalaska has anointed himself as the arbiter of what constitutes truth, justice, and the American Way.

 

[Al Norris]

Hmmm... I was actually hoping for something on the order of what 685cmj was trying to say. Instead, we are getting more of this "vote from the rooftop" BS... Which is the way I figured this thread to go.

Folks, if you really want to get something done, you will have to get involved. Run for office yourself, or find someone who thinks like you to run for office. City Council; Mayor; County Commission; State Legislature... And on up the ladder.

Voting, for every election, sure helps. But running for an office that has the ability to actually make a difference is much better. It's the long view that counts. And it's a hard thing to do. Much tougher than merely squeezing the trigger.

At the rate this thread is going, it won't stay open for much longer.

 

[sanson]

lets back off here and for now repeat the wise choices on how to defend our rights. currently we can still research candidates and choose for ourselves. we can teach people that guns are just tools and punish people who use these tools to victimize others. join groups like the NRA who go through all the legal channels defending gun rights.

 

[kennybs plbg]

I was actually hoping for something on the order of what 685cmj was trying to say. Instead, we are getting more of this "vote from the rooftop" BS... Which is the way I figured this thread to go.

Maybe thats due to the way people are answering the original question.

Who will stand up for gun rights when the SHTF?

The question takes us beyond what everyone is discussing on how we will get there and what we could do to prevent it. It is pretty much a bottom line question.

When people answer it honestly or within thier beliefs they are ridiculed by those who are offended and never believe we will come to that. I personally have met many people who lived through such times with families slaughtered durring the war. History does repeat itself because people refuse to learn from it, many live in denial and are willing to forget.

kenny b

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Folks, politics is just a proxy for war. It is a way to fight battles for power without the destruction of the infrastructure that leaves both sides worse off. Even in non-democratic governments and outright tyrannies, they must make accomodations to the power segments of their society if they wish to prevent revolt.

In a free society, the political system more accurately reflects the power of each bloc. There is no need to revolt against a free society because if you had the power to be successful, you would already have the political power you need to make the changes you want.

Politics is an intensely complicated game of logistics, information warfare, and managing different blocs of people with diverse interests. To quote Clausewitz, politics is simply war by other means.

So it always distresses me to see people suggest that our hope somehow lies in revolt or war. It distresses me because if we can't master the easier elements of politics, we certainly stand no chance of succeeding at the harder task of war. If you have an effective political organization, you have 90% of what you need for an effective armed resistance. Even better, you have a group that can protect your rights and stop SHTF from being a future worry. Much like an armed citizenry is a deterrent to genocide, an effective political organization is a deterrent to SHTF-problems to begin with.

Whether you are concerned about your rights or SHTF-scenarios, your best defense is an effective organization of like-minded individuals capable os sustaining itself and promoting its view. If you want to win the revolution game, you had better be able to master the political game first.

 

[Old Gaffer]

Maryland has several proposals in its Legislature - some I am for, some I'm against.

Perhaps the worst of the lot is a bill that will turn virtually every every semiauto rifle and pistol into an assault weapon by legislative fiat. I wrote my State SEnator a letter in opposition to his co-sponsorship of this bill.

I am so opposed to that particular POS that I took a day off of work and drive to Annapolis to testify against it. There were about 10 people signed up to testify for it, 210 to testify against. I haven't heard the results of the committee vote yet.

At the same time there's a bill to rewrite MD's restrictive CCW laws to turn MD into a Shall Issue State - which is a huge departure from its current "May but very likely Won't" issue state status. I've written my state Senator urging him to sign on as a co-sponsor. I will most likely show up in Annapolis again for this one.

If I have to spend all of my annual vacation in Annapolis in a suit and tie to let my legislators know - up front and personal-like just how I feel about gun ownership and my rights under the Constitution, I will.

And the next election I'll be voting accordingly. And I'll be an election judge (again), just to make sure that YOUR voting rights aren't trampled on.

I'm also a member of the Revolutionary War Veteran's Association, whose sole purpose is to train people to be "Riflemen" (and women, DW goes with me) in preparation for the day when it's time to declare that the S really has HTF, and taking up arms in our defense in the only recourse left.

How will I know that that's happened? When I see Blue U.N. uniforms landing to enforce some sanction against the US of A.

All the best,
Rob

 

[Pointer]

I have to agree with Wild here. We still have the right to present our grievances to the government via court, our legislators and at the ballot box.

Vito's thread asks about what's to be done after the problems arise...

No one has said anything REMOTELY like we shouldn't do everything we can to prevent that awful day...

 

[2rugers]

I'll stand.

Hell, I will even run for office.

With 49,000 members here at TFL who think exactly like I do , I have
a pretty good chance of winning.

Don'tcha' think???

 

[685cmj]

With 49,000 members here at TFL who think exactly like I do , I have
a pretty good chance of winning.

Yah, good luck with that!

 

[cuate]

Firearm Prohibition by legislation will/would be like alcohol prohibition. In this Country largely ignored, as Americans generally will not fall down before the
Royalty in Washington and the State Capitols like sheep to the slaughter as do and did Britons, Aussies, New Zealanders, and Canadians.

Americans (add honest, law abiding) generally obey the laws they think are decent and ignore those laws which they don't. Take a look at driving habits.
Take a look at the history of Prohibition during that era.

I really do not think we will allow firearm prohibition and the antis know it !!!

 

[kennybs plbg]

Do people actually believe "all Canadians" turned in or reported all thier firearms? I think not!


kenny b

 

[old 12 gauge]

When we go through gun registration, followed by restrictive licensing, followed by laws mandating gun confiscation, who will stand up and be counted and who will meekly submit?
All of the above has already happened and no one has stood up, there are millions that are not allowed to have a weapon for one reason or an another, not a citizen, to young-if you're a high school grad at 17, you can go in the army and have a gun, but not if you're a civilan, you can';t buy one til you're 18-21.. felons, mentally un balanced people, or they live in the wrong city where owning a gun is not worth the hassel or money, all of the above happened because it didn't affect you or I,, some old poem, when they came after me there was no one left.
Our forefathers took up arms against England because they resented nuisance taxes without political representation. They risked their fortunes, there liberty and their lives to get out from the mildly (by today's standards) oppressive rule of the British crown.
we're all well represented today, it's just that for yrs no one has represented gun owners very much, they just don't have the guts to disagree with other law makers, well they will give you one thing while they take away five, just more political deal making.
Today how many Americans will do anything to stop the gun grabbers? Will we go quietly along with the end of the 2A as the English, Australians and others have given up their guns and their rights, or will enough of us be willing to do more?
By anything, i hope you're not asking how many will barricade them selves in a bldg and refuse to turn in their weapons, it would be suicide.
If a law is passed to turn in all weapons, law abiding people would have no choice, it wouldn't be like prohibition, anyone could make a little booze for him self to drink quietly at home, but just let someone fire a gun if they were prohibited and see how fast you have company.
to roll back all gun laws you would need a well liked canidate with a bank roll of at least 300 mil, plus most of the media and talk show host backing them.

I wonder how many readers of this forum even give a few bucks to a pro-gun presidential candidate, let alone get involved before it is too late for all gun owners.[/B]
many people have poured millions of dollars to different orgs over the yrs and gun owners keep losing the battle, make deals, which is bull.
when prohibition ended, it was for all booze, not just 3.2 beer and drunk drivers have killed as many people as guns.
the NRA should be looking for a canidate, they have the money and the resources to mingle with the politions,or a deep depression and a canidate that will promise anything like FRT.JMO

 

[hammer4nc]

Those who claim to be seasoned veterans of political struggles would be much more convincing if they related their successes, in these fights.

How about posting some first-hand stories, where letter writing campaigns turned around a gun-grabbing politician, on a specific issue, or convinced an electorate to run a gun-grabbing politician out of office? Or defeated an anti-gun measure? Let's be very specific here! I'm sure these stories would be much more convincing than some tired jingoism about old bulls.

The problem, as I see it, is that gun rights is becoming an increasingly minority viewpoint. Relying on democratic processes to address erosion of gun rights, seems somewhat naive. Remember Feinstein's quote "if I had 51 votes, Mr. and Mrs. America, I'd take them all" (or something to that effect).

The backstop, or course, to the "tyranny of the majority", is supposed to be the courts (i.e., constitution). So, to all the seasoned veterans who enjoy belittling any talk of physical struggles (even hypothetical), I repeat the question...How about posting some success stories, where your political action had a dramatic impact on the judicial protections for RKBA?

When you brag about doing all this great political activism "since before most of us were born"; I keep wondering why y'all tell only half the story?

I had a mentor once who said: "Don't confuse activity with results".

Now, I stand back to absorb the wisdom of the senior, elite "old bulls" on their victory stories.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Relying on democratic processes to address erosion of gun rights, seems somewhat naive

Want to post how you lead an armed rebellion that led to the AWB expiring or the passage of shall issue CCW laws in about 40 states now? I seemed to have missed that on the news.

Experientally - has there been any action at all, after any gun law? No - unless you want to count Tim McVeigh. He certainly promoted the cause.

A reality check - if there was a new AWB and someone actually started using violence in protest, given our experiences with terrorism and the reputation of nut case militias in Iraq, the country would turn on you and probably most gun owners in a millisecond.

Nice to posture on the Internet though.

 

[kennybs plbg]

In the last 6 years there has been a major turn around on Gun Rights at the Federal Level and many battles also won at the State Level.
Education is needed to replace fear and must start at the base of our society with our children.

kenny b

 

[hammer4nc]

Stop. Right. There. I don't advocate armed rebellion.

There has to be some avenue (strategy and tactics) to advance a minority-held issue (RKBA); one that currently stands little chance of being preserved through our democratic and judicial processes.

My reality of the current political environment is that it is a totally rigged game. On so many levels. Maintaining a 9th grade civics meme on how this works, is the definition of naive

Feel free to challenge these assertions, however.

That's why I requested success stories be posted (we'll count ge meyer as a zero on that score/I'll overlook the sarcasm); to prove the viability of accepted channels, and pass on successful techniques to others.

Our opponents would like nothing better than for us to burn out on the treadmill of letter writing. But, hey, if you're a true believer, knock yourself out.

There has to be something between writing a stongly worded letter to your congressman, and armed rebellion, don't you think? Hence the value of threads like this, to share some creative thinking.

 

[deadin]

It seems from reading all of these posts that all "non-violent" methods of imposing the will of a minotity are being trivialized by some and ,while they are claiming "it's all hypothetical", they seem to be fishing for "the only answer is armed revolution". If all of their "nothing less will succeed" attitude, I guess we are all screwed and might as well turn in our guns to the next buy-back program.:barf: I ,for one, don't see any successful armed revolution over firearms ownership in the near future.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

How about posting some first-hand stories, where letter writing campaigns turned around a gun-grabbing politician

Both Sen. George Allen of VA and Sen. Russ Feingold of WI reversed their position on the 1994 AWB as a result of letter-writing campaigns by gun owners. Previously, both had supported the ban.

on a specific issue, or convinced an electorate to run a gun-grabbing politician out of office?

Many politicians, including Bill Clinton, have attributed the massive Democratic defeat in 1994 to voters punishing those who voted for various 1994 gun control measures.

Or defeated an anti-gun measure? Let's be very specific here!

How about the NRA sinking the Protection of Lawful Commerce Act rather than accept an AWB renewal? Or you could look to Sen. Bob Smith's successful filibuster of the NICS Enhancement bill in 2003. This bill had already passed the House and was on its way to becoming law.

There are literally dozens of stories like the ones you asked for out there at both the state and national level.

My reality of the current political environment is that it is a totally rigged game. On so many levels. Maintaining a 9th grade civics meme on how this works, is the definition of naive

A rigged game denotes one where you cannot change the outcome and on that, you are wrong. However, you make an interesting statement concerning the 9th grade civics meme. Is physics the same as what they taught you in 9th grade? Not really. They eliminate all the complicated and confusing concepts and present a simplified version that a majority of 9th graders can grasp. Politics and our system of government is considerably more complex than the 9th grade civics meme and if that is all you have for reference, then it is easy to see the game as "rigged" since you only have half the rules and you keep losing because of rules you have never heard about. The answer though is not to take your ball and go home and allow others to decide what will happen, it is to learn the rest of the rules and start applying them in your own interest (or donate to groups you trust to do this on your behalf).

 

[NukeCop]

"I ,for one, don't see any successful armed revolution over firearms ownership in the near future."

Deadin, you may be near sighted in this case my friend. May I suggest contacts or glasses?

I could have swore many folks said the same thing about colonists fighting England....