Where’s The NRA When We Need Them?

[ligonierbill]

Every so often, I see a thread gar mouthing the NRA. "They did something I didn't agree with. so they'll never get another penny from me!" Chuck and Nancy rejoice! Riddle me this: What other political action organization has been effective in defending the 2nd Amendment? The ACLU? When you see the governor of Connecticut saying the NRA has blood on its hands, you know it has been effective. When protesters carry signs "Abolish the NRA", you know they have been effective.

Regards party affiliation, we are unfortunately in a "If they're fer it, I'm agin it" state.

 

[adamBomb]

Perhaps you could refresh my memory as to what gun laws Obama passed?

Google my friend, google.

-Extended concealed carry to national parks, within the laws of the states containing them.

-Allowed checking firearms on Amtrak trains, bringing their regulation consistent with air travel.

 

[thallub]

Chuck and Nancy rejoice! Riddle me this: What other political action organization has been effective in defending the 2nd Amendment?

It may be an organization you never heard of: It's the Safari Club International. Unlike the NRA, the Safari Club International works behind the scenes: My contributions go to that organization.

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/contrib.php?ind=Q13&Bkdn=DemRep&cycle=2016

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While the NRA should be a single issue organization, Wayne seems to be on a rant about the evils of socialism and how the Democrats want to bring on socialism. That's not a productive vein for him to mine. It is clearly trying to appeal to one subset of his perceived choir.

NRA editorials continue to discuss the issue in terms of evil 'liberals'. Their rhetoric should be pro gun or anti gun. Thus, I respectfully disagree with my good friend and fellow staff member.

 

[zukiphile]

Every so often, I see a thread gar mouthing the NRA. "They did something I didn't agree with. so they'll never get another penny from me!" Chuck and Nancy rejoice! Riddle me this: What other political action organization has been effective in defending the 2nd Amendment? The ACLU? When you see the governor of Connecticut saying the NRA has blood on its hands, you know it has been effective. When protesters carry signs "Abolish the NRA", you know they have been effective.

Indeed. If you seek protection of the right politically, the question isn't whether you like the NRA, every decision they make, every personality they host, but whether they are effective blocking a worse movement.

For example, this could be done in a nonpolitical way by issuing a statement like, ‘The NRA does not take a position on the immigration debate, since it is a political debate that is not relevant to the Second Amendment. However, since the NRA is a civil rights organization, and it is our position that the second amendment is a codification of a natural right, we therefore support the right of all persons, not having been disqualified under USC 922(g)(1-4)(6-9), whether citizens, visa holders, documented immigrants, or undocumented immigrants, the right to possess and bear arms for the purpose of self defense or for any other lawful purpose. Consistent with this position, it is further the NRA’s position that persons disqualified under USC 922 (g)(5) should not be disqualified unless adjudicated to be a danger to themselves or society.’

I’m pretty sure that position would not fly with most of the current membership. I’m like 51% certain said membership would burn down NRA headquarters. But it would get lots of Latino support.

An unrestricted natural rights position is a fringe position on these pages, and the NRA already gets criticism here for not working with gun rights opponents for solutions. You proposed position would instantly marginalise the NRA rhetorically and leave it politically a target after the next Kate Steinly incident. I believe you overestimate the unanimity of senitment regarding immigration. We had Bay Buchanon stop by for a Federalist lunch a few years ago. People were polite to her, but no one was buying her message.

If the NRA wasn’t so heavily invested and allied with the conservative movement and were a true single issue organization, such a position would be possible.

But I understand that the NRA has to be practical, and right now, it’s practical to sleep with the Republican Party.

I have some sympathy for people here who are interested in 2d Am. rights but are alienated by an aura of traditionalism in NRA communications. The question those people should ask is why left of center electoral politics are so hostile to the right of an individual to arm. If the message of government limited so that can't take your press or firearms or church or property leave a person intensely uncomfortable, is that really a problem with the NRA?

People can have heterodox positions within movements, but a political demand that the NRA pretend that an ethic of limited government inherent in a rights claim doesn't have implication beyond arms amounts to a demand that one's position on arms rights be subordinated to his other less congruent ideological affections.

The ACLU has a similar aura to it. That doesn't mean that they work they do for the rights they defend isn't good work, but urging them to abandon their political context is a demand they they become substantially different people.

Where is the NRA? The NRA is wallowing in political trash unrelated to gun rights. The NRA has changed drastically in the past 6-8 years. They have bought into everything "conservative".

Why is that? Who is the modern John Dingell who stands as an advocate in Congress?

 

[ATN082268]

I think spending on counter advertising is a waste of our money. Better to "waste" the money in court challenges, instead.

I think both of these are epic wastes of money. In general, the courts seem about as anti-gun as the media. The U.S. Supreme Court barely affirmed the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights was actually a right and seems inclined to not take gun cases, so lower courts are free to ravage this right by upholding virtually every anti-gun law as reasonable. I'd say the best money spent is on trying to keep anti-gun stuff from passing in the first place or barring that, inserting a sunset clause and/or other things to minimize the damage.

 

[zukiphile]

In general, the courts seem about as anti-gun as the media. The U.S. Supreme Court barely affirmed the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights was actually a right and seems inclined to not take gun cases, so lower courts are free to ravage this right by upholding virtually every anti-gun law as reasonable.

Why is this though? Those judges were nominated and confirmed by elected officeholders. Their voters were influenced by public advocacy.

If Ginsberg, Sotomayor, Kagan and Breyer are a problem, they are a problem that was planted in prior elections.

 

[Prndll]

There are those with 'bloody hands'. The bloodiest are not part of the NRA. Regardless of how you may view the NRA, don't be distracted. There is evil out there. Real evil. Alot of people are getting played (much of it through social media). The worst of the worst offenders are not members of the NRA and consider the NRA an enemy. That's not to say it's ok for the right (conservative or otherwise) to allow the left to destroy. It is quite simply that it's easy to lose focus. Perhaps too easy.

Personally, I question how the NRA can hold the stance it has regarding bump stocks AND simultaneously have such problems with raising the legal age to 21. But, that doesn't turn the NRA into bad guys. If anything (for me anyway), it means holding off on membership.

Who cares what position the NRA takes with regard to immigration? That's not what they are there for. I would rather they have no (public) opinion on it.

As for their publicly stated views on the left being socialist:
Well....they are.

 

[JoeSixpack]

@ligonierbill
They also say the NRA sells guns which is flatly untrue, NRA is hated on the other side because they are the biggest target.

Im not seeing a whole lot moving at the federal level and the NRA is not credited with improvements at the state level.. That credit goes to OFCC and BFA which are state org's.

I give credit where credit is due but I also damn them when they go limp.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The NRA does a lot of work behind the scenes, that most of us don't see because it doesn't make headlines, and the NRA doesn't push to have their name attached to it. Case in point:

For a number of years, my municipality had on the books a local ordinance that said it was unlawful to possess a loaded firearm on municipal property. The reason this was a huge issue is that the police (correctly) viewed public streets (other than a couple of state highways crossing the town) as municipal property. For those of us who are residents, this meant our state-issued carry permits were virtually useless. For me to carry legally, I had to unload before starting my car, then drive 2+ miles to reach a state road before I could reload. And then hope I didn't hit a traffic detour that took my off state roads before I could get out of town. I also couldn't carry when taking my trash to the transfer station, dropping off a book at the library, or paying my taxes at the tax collector's office.

I set out to challenge the ordinance, and I hired a gun rights attorney to advise me and to put together a lawsuit to overturn the ordinance. This attorney had connections to the NRA, and the NRA agreed to contribute toward my legal fees because they agreed the ordinance was horrible. Most people IN town didn't know about it, but how would anyone from a different town know that they couldn't drive through my town with a loaded gun on their hip or in their purse -- even with a permit?

We tried the carrot and stick approach. The carrot was to play nice and politely meet with the municipal board to request a change. The stick was the threat of the lawsuit -- which we had ready to file.

And then Sandy Hook happened, and the already anti-gun chief executive officer got her knickers in a twist and directed the municipal counsel to make us go away.We looked at the array of judges we'd be up against if we proceeded with the lawsuit and decided we would be guaranteed to lose. "Bad cases make bad law," so I made the decision to not file the suit rather than proceed and give the other side a win.

And, in the end, the effort did give us a partial win. Just before the end of her last term (she retired rather than run for reelection) the chief executive officer pushed through a revision to the ordinance. A major change was an exception for carry on public streets pursuant to a permit. I still can't carry at the transfer station, but at least now I don't have to disarm when I walk out to my mailbox and cross the property line. More importantly, people driving through town don't have to worry about being busted for a firearms violation if they get stopped for a broken taillight.

My point is that I could not have taken the effort as far as it went without the support (financial and moral) of the NRA. They have a fund for such cases, and a committee that meets two (or four?) times a year to decide which cases they're going to help fund.

 

[Mike38]

-Extended concealed carry to national parks, within the laws of the states containing them.

-Allowed checking firearms on Amtrak trains, bringing their regulation consistent with air travel.

Yea, Obama did do those. But I still have a bad taste in my mouth about his Kalashnikov import ban. I had two .22 caliber Target pistols made by a sister company of Kalashnikov, Izhmash. Valued at $800-1000 each. Imports of these pistols, as well as repair parts came to a screeching halt. Basically, I had two paper weights. When it came time for periotic tune ups for these pistols, I had to sell them both at a huge loss. Sold them while they still worked good.

I haven't been in a National Park or rode Amtrak for over 30-40 years, so Obama did more harm to me than good.

 

[Prndll]

Aguila Blanca:
This is the kind of thing I would like or expect to see from the NRA. Reading your post made me feel better about things and is part of why the NRA does look appealing to me. The more I see though, the more I really think I just need to get off the fence. This might be a struggle that I will just have to live with and simply pick a partner and accept what is to be.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

This is the kind of thing I would like or expect to see from the NRA.

The thing is, I don't know if you'll see much about such activities. I have the impression that they intentionally don't make their participation known.

Speaking only to my own case, I can say with absolute certainty that the municipal government is heavily Democratic, and extremely anti-gun. We had three meetings with the governing board, one of which also attended by several women in professions that take them to multiple towns and cities and who tried to explain why they felt it necessary to go armed for self defense. And my attorney went into the RKBA, both from the U.S. Constitution and from our own state constitution. The chief executive officer (who is, by the way, a professor of law) ended all that when she said, "That's all very nice, but ... we don't like guns."

That was the reception we got when we went in as home-grown, grass roots citizens (I grew up in the town, I was a Boy Scout, my father was a deacon in the church adjacent to town hall, I was president of my senior class in high school). We did everything we could to keep it low key and to try to make it easy for them to do the right thing. Imagine how they would have reacted if they had known we were being backed (even partially) by the dreaded NRA.

I believe there is a lot of this going on that you'll never hear about, and that's the reason why.

 

[5whiskey]

This is the kind of thing I would like or expect to see from the NRA. Reading your post made me feel better about things and is part of why the NRA does look appealing to me. The more I see though, the more I really think I just need to get off the fence. This might be a struggle that I will just have to live with and simply pick a partner and accept what is to be

I'm not a pusher of the NRA. I'm a member, and I agree with their mission. But I don't push, because I recognize there are alternative organizations.

For someone who wonders if they should do the NRA or another organization, my recommendation is to join something right away as a yearly member. You're not marrying the organization. You're just joining a group that represents you as a gun owner and 2A supporter. If that's important to you, then do it. Don't wait another 6 months to decide. Just pick one. If you find later you don't agree with their stances you can change next year.

Second off, regarding the NRA. No other organization has done more, in all and in general, for gun ownership, rights, and education, than the NRA. The NRA has partnered to influence military training, law enforcement training, hunter safety education, and has sponsored youth firearms safety and competition for at least a century. Their initial charter was not to lobby for firearms rights. Pretty much prior to the NFA in the 30's, no reason existed for them to. That was likely believed to be a one time thing, an anomoly, and its hard to pass judgement on it without living during the period. Then came GCA '68. The NRA is accused of being a bunch sellouts because of that but that law was initially much worse before they influenced it. They finally had to become a pro-2A lobbying organization but only in the last 40 years or so. In the big picture, the need for pro-2A rights lobbying is relatively new. The Brady campaign really kicked it off. And the NRA has been there to respond through it all.

All of this history for a reminder of what the NRA is and does. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the very good. They have a strategy. It may not be perfect, but it's likely pretty good. Its important to be counted as a member of 2A rights somewhere. The NRA is at least as good as any other.

 

[In The Ten Ring]

Allowing 18 to 21 year olds to buy weapons IF those people are in the military is a violation of existing law. Disabled persons are not allowed to join the military but if such a law passed they'd then be discriminated against again.

It depends on the judges but the law being proposed by Trump would fail in this regard....nothing new for Trump, he doesn't have a great batting record on his actions passing judicial review. "We'll ban all Muslims!" I was disgusted how many people supported that insane campaign rhetoric. They clearly had no idea what the nation was founded upon nor what conservative principles are.

 

[Johny Smith]

When I did my courses to get my carry and conceal permit I took them at our States premier gun club but only because it was sponsered and taught by the NRA using trained NRA members and local active duty police officers.
(and I wanted a real education and not a gun-ho sally in fatigues teaching me)
It was a two course deal with safety and it took a week, with live fire qualification on the last day to get your certificate. And some did not make it.

Fast forward a few years and the NRA no longer offers the course but you can buy the course material online.


I'm afraid some do not really want to look deeply into what they are all about and have bought spiel hook, line and sinker. If the NRA was to fold tomorrow it would make absolutely no difference for the individual private gun owner,,,not one difference !


They have done nothing but spend money to bribe Congress members and only then to serve the gun manufactures.
And guess what, Trump won't help us either.

Come 2020 we will still not be able to go on vacation out of State with our carry guns because after all, driving is privilege while gun ownership is only a Constitutional right.
Do some even realize what is happening if you go for a yearly routine physical and you are on a social security pension ? Trump only stopped them black balling those who are drawing an SSI check but having their money mange, he did nothing about what Obama sneaked in going to you primary physician.

Be very careful in how you answer those questions because if he interprets your sadness because you dog died and writes down "Joe Blow came to see me, he looks good but seem 'Depressed' over his dog dying"
Guess what it gets reported and you get flagged, no guns for you ever !

So why did the last f rauds in office do that, because it helps stop the flow of guns, remember the goal is not gun control it's a total gun ban.

 

[In The Ten Ring]

There was a judge that ruled a couple of years ago that even "illegal aliens had the right to keep and bear arms." I can't quote what case but I recall reading it in the news. Maybe someone will chime in.

Do illegal aliens have the right to worship freely? I would say "yes." Does every human have the right to keep and bear arms? Yes. So yes, illegal aliens have the right to arms because it is an inherent human right.

Many existing laws violate the Constitution, and they violate human rights.

I agree the NRA works "behind the scenes." That's a good thing.

I had a friendly chat with a Yankee today (MA) who said he didn't own any guns, it was clear he was not up with gun laws, but then he pulled out an NRA credit card. I was impressed.

When I broached the subject of firearms I did it with a true story, concerning driving across NY state and being followed by a would-be robber into PA.
It was a great way to bring up the topic and engage in conversation.

Conservatives have dropped the ball on spreading the virtues of our principles, we have surrendered the school systems and colleges. Even on this board we disagree, argue over bump stocks and open carry, etc. while the Left is united in their goal of complete disarmament. Divided we will fall. Stay united. Don't let one more slice of cake be taken.....strive to protect the cake we have while we bake new cakes. Be friendly, compassionate, and factual when discussing with the anti's...it's going to take that and a lot more to win back some hearts.

And he agreed, the "students" in this "new movement" are paid by Soros and the gun grabbers, they are the same students that protested the election results. We've got to motivate our people the same way. If you don't belong to a state "defense league" (Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) comes to mind), join or start one. WVCDL has had a string of victories in that state since its inception.

 

[5whiskey]

When I did my courses to get my carry and conceal permit I took them at our States premier gun club but only because it was sponsered and taught by the NRA using trained NRA members and local active duty police officers.
(and I wanted a real education and not a gun-ho sally in fatigues teaching me)
It was a two course deal with safety and it took a week, with live fire qualification on the last day to get your certificate. And some did not make it.

Fast forward a few years and the NRA no longer offers the course but you can buy the course material online.


I'm afraid some do not really want to look deeply into what they are all about and have bought spiel hook, line and sinker. If the NRA was to fold tomorrow it would make absolutely no difference for the individual private gun owner,,,not one difference !


They have done nothing but spend money to bribe Congress members and only then to serve the gun manufactures.

You do realize that your state's "premier" gun club was not owned by the NRA or operated by the NRA. That particular course shutting down was not because the NRA decided to shut it down. Its because the "premier" gun club decided to shut it down. The fact that the curriculum is provided online proves that the NRA still provides its original support...

The NRA does not fund private clubs, nor does it influence the classes that private clubs provide outside of providing curriculum and certified instructors. BTW, NRA is still the gold standard in certifying instructors. Most states that require a class for CCH permits will require the instructor of said class to be NRA certified at a minimum.

 

[Johny Smith]

@5whiskey,

I'm not sure you understand, they don't offer it anymore because it cost them money.
Easier and more lucrative just to sell it online.

Do you further understand who the NRA is involved with behind the scene's ! They are in total conspiracy to help get the guns out of the United States, that's right you heard correctly, they are working secretly behind the scenes to destroy the 2nd amendment.


You will note the money brokers like Michael Bloomberg among others have been quite for a few years now, the NRA has been bought.

Load up and keep it dry and may God have mercy on our wrenched lives ..

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Fast forward a few years and the NRA no longer offers the course but you can buy the course material online.


I'm afraid some do not really want to look deeply into what they are all about and have bought spiel hook, line and sinker. If the NRA was to fold tomorrow it would make absolutely no difference for the individual private gun owner,,,not one difference !

I think you need to check the NRA training site again. They have been trying to make their curriculum more available by adapting it to a modern society in which people don't have sufficient attention span to sit in a classroom for four to six hours before getting to the live fire portion of the class. First they tried making it so that students bought the course and took the test on-line, then found an NRA instructor to conduct the live fire portion. That was a brief effort -- it didn't go over well at all with instructors, and it didn't work out particularly well for the students, either.

There's a second new Basic Handgun class out now, that the NRA thinks is an improvement over the first attempt at on-line instruction. I can't comment -- I'm a certified instructor, but I've been bogged down with health issues recently so I haven't brought myself up to speed on the current iteration of the course. I hope to rectify that soon.

In any event, it seems you are criticizing the NRA for responding to what people have been asking for. Maybe that's valid, but it seems a bit unfair to me.

I'm not sure you understand, they don't offer it anymore because it cost them money.
Easier and more lucrative just to sell it online.

How do you figure it cost the NRA money to do it the old way? They didn't give away those course books -- the instructors bought them. I don't think the NRA is making more money on the new system. If they are, I don't know how.