What's the difference?

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Spats McGee

Administrator
As I think I've mentioned in the past, my first carry gun was a 1911. Over the years, I've moved to lighter and lighter pistols, eventually reaching the point that my carry pistols include a G19, a Shield and an LCR. A few years back, I decided that I want all of my carry pistols to operate the same way: point & shoot. As the 1911 was the only one of my pistols that had a thumb safety, I eventually phased it out.

One of the side effects of not carrying the 1911 was that I quit taking it to the range as often. Life necessarily limits my free time, and I always felt it more important to take carry guns than the 1911 to the range. So I wound up in a position where I hadn't shot my 1911 in 2-3 years. The truth of the matter is that I'm not a spectacular shot to begin with. (I know. You're all amazed, right? ;)) We all know I'm not a "high-speed, low-drag operator," but I shoot my other carry guns decently for a pencil-pusher. With both the G19 and the Shield, I typically group slightly low and left and am having a devil of a time fixing that, but I'm working on it. Aaaannnyyyyway . . . . . Fast forward to a few weeks ago. While this whole March For Our Lives doohickey was going on, I decided to go to the range. You know, to do my part and all. . . . :D Mrs. McGee and I both went. She'd been itching to go shoot .22s, so we loaded 'em up and off we went. She doesn't go to the range with me often, so it was a special treat for me. A while back, I'd loaded some 1911 mags in anticipation of a range trip that never happened, but I figured that day would be a good one to blow the dust out of the 1911.

When we got done shooting the .22s, I pulled out those mags, loaded up and shot . . . . like I'd never shot before in my life. With one exception (that I pulled low and left, of course), I put about 40 rounds through one ragged hole dead-centered on the target. It was only about 10 yards, so you probably should not be too impressed, but I was astounded. There was a whole lot of "What the hell?!?" bouncing around in my head.

I know that in the past I've said like:
  • My Glock trigger is good enough for SD applications.
  • I"m not a trigger snob.
  • The trigger in my Glock is actually pretty good for a Glock.
But I have to admit that I have been questioning my own position on what a "good trigger" can do for one's shooting since that day. I also know that none of you were there, and that you can't definitively explain why my shooting was so much better with the 1911 that day. But I still consider myself newish to handgun shooting, having only taken it up seriously about 8 years ago, so I'd be curious as to opinions from you more experienced handgunners. Obviously, I need to get back to the range for more testing (or so I keep telling Mrs. McGee), but what was the difference? Was it the 1911 trigger? Is the 45acp inherently more accurate than 9mm? (And please do not make me lock my own thread because it devolves into a caliber war.) Grip angle?

As you might imagine, I immediately started rethinking things . . . But I couldn't figure out who makes a G19-sized pistol that carries 15 rounds of .45 and has the 1911 grip angle and trigger. :p
 
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zukiphile

New member
Spats McGee said:
... but what was the difference? Was it the 1911 trigger? Is the 45acp inherently more accurate than 9mm? (And please do not make me lock my own thread because it devolves into a caliber war.) Grip angle?
Click to expand...

Or the two or three year break allowed your bad habits to subside?

When I shot pistol regularly, other shooters frequently asked me to shoot their newly acquired items, particularly if they were having problems with the pistol. I almost always shot their pistols better than my own (with the memorable and bizarre exception of a S&W 41).

My explanation is that shortcuts and bad habits accumulate like dust, and when someone hands me something new, I start afresh with a technique unpolluted a history of error.

And also, 1911s "rule".
 
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HighValleyRanch

New member
^^^^Zukiphile beat me to the punch while I was typing!:D

Not to say this is what happened, but.....
I've been around the shooting games for a long time. It's not that unusual for a shooter to pick up a brand new gun and shoot it better than one that he shoots with everyday.

The underlying reason might be "low expectation". Since one is not invested in how well he does, the shooter might be more likely to concentrate on the fundementals without the ego getting involved, and have a better day with the new tool, whether it be a new gun, a gun that hasn't been shot for a while, new grips, new technique, etc.

But the real key is whether that newest wears off and the old habits come back it. It's called beginners luck. Seen in shooting, archery, pool player, martial arts, etc.

Take that .45 out back a few more times before you convince yourself that it's the bow and not the indian.
 
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moosemike

New member
I'd have phased out the 1911 too. Who has that much time to devote to clearing jams and figuring out why the stupid thing won't feed? :D
 
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glockman55

New member
I shoot my 1911's best.. one in particular. My Sig 1911 Ultra Compact.. I carry a Kahr and shoot it pretty good but I can grab that Sig most anytime and destroy the center of that target.. Most all my guns I shoot low left but not the Sig..View attachment 107265
 
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Cheapshooter

New member
what was the difference? Was it the 1911 trigger? Is the 45acp (1911) inherently more accurate than 9mm? Grip angle?
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Yes, yes (1911 not necessarily 45 acp), and yes.
Thinking #3 might be the most likely. The Glock just doesn't match some hands as well as a 1911.
 
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ms6852

New member
I believe that the 1911 is inherently more accurate due to a few things, for example, longer barrel giving a longer sight radius than all your carry guns. Heavier gun absorbs recoil a lot better that your lighter pistols reducing the snappy recoil one encounters with light guns and shorter barrels. The last thing about the 1911 is the slim line profile it has provides for a more natural aim.
 
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K_Mac

New member
It could be the 1911. They are easy to shoot well. I don't carry one for the reasons you mentioned though.

It also could just be one of those days. It has happened to me a couple of times over the years. I had a day with my carry 9 a year or two ago where I shot far better than normal. Since then not so much. I more often have an occasional day when I don't quite meet my expectations. If I shot bullseye this would be an issue. For an old guy who is just looking to increase speed and reduce drag I just accept that in the words of John Denver, "Some days are diamonds, some days are stone."

If you can repeat your exceptional performance with the 1911 a few times and it is significantly better than you do side by side with your carry weapons, then you can decide. My guess is that won't be the case. Even if it is, if your speed and accuracy with your carry guns is acceptable the improved performance of the 1911 may not outweigh the other considerations. You can just save the 1911 for impressing others. There is value in that too.:cool:
 
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tallball

New member
Another possibility:

The OP's 1911 is easier to shoot than his other CC pistols due to longer sight radius, weight, better trigger, etc.

By practicing for years with pistols that are more difficult to shoot well, he's improved his overall pistol shooting skills. Thus when he finally shoots his 1911 again, he's better with it than he used to be.

It's just a theory, but if I were the OP, it would be the one that I claimed. :)
 
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Spats McGee

Administrator
tallball said:
. . . .By practicing for years with pistols that are more difficult to shoot well, he's improved his overall pistol shooting skills. Thus when he finally shoots his 1911 again, he's better with it than he used to be.

It's just a theory, but if I were the OP, it would be the one that I claimed. :)
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I think I like this story the best! :D
 
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Aguila Blanca

Staff
Spats McGee said:
As you might imagine, I immediately started rethinking things . . . But I couldn't figure out who makes a G19-sized pistol that carries 15 rounds of .45 and has the 1911 grip angle and trigger.
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Para-Ordnance P13.45 (Okay, it's only 13 rounds, not 15).

attachment.php


This is a Limited model, which has adjustable sights and an ambi thumb safety. Standard models had fixed sights and a left-side safety paddle. You may still be able to find the optional law enforcement mag bases that add two rounds to the capacity.


As to your question of why you shot so much better with the 1911 ... yes, the 1911 trigger is that much better. The ergonomics of the 1911 are so perfect that one really has to wonder why designers of handguns that have come since ever departed from the grip angle. People have been trying to improve on the 1911 for over 100 years -- and 1911s are still winning competitions all over the world.
 

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GarandTd

New member
I like tallball's theory. I think it has some merit.

Im not super experienced either. My main shooter is a full size DA/SA 9mm that I shoot pretty well. Recently I picked up a DAO 380 pocket pistol. I can shoot the 380 well, but it takes alot more concentration and still I don't shoot it as well as the full size 9. I've been shooting the 380 more because I've been carrying it. On my last range visit I took out the full size 9 and suprised myself with how well I was shooting. Slightly different scale, but similar experience and results.
 
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TunnelRat

New member
The ergonomics of the 1911 are so perfect that one really has to wonder why designers of handguns that have come since ever departed from the grip angle.
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Eh...I think that's a bit subjective.

People have been trying to improve on the 1911 for over 100 years -- and 1911s are still winning competitions all over the world.
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I'll be that guy and say that I honestly believe there are designs that I feel have improved on the semiautomatic handgun in general. Are they drastically better? I don't really think so, but I don't think time has stood still since 1911 and his Grace the Lord John Moses Browning blessed us with his presence. As for winning competitions all over the world, I've been under the impression that while 1911s are very popular stateside and certainly have entire segments that they occupy, that when it comes to the world as a whole I'd wager there are more popular designs.
 
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Siggy-06

New member
Might I suggest taking a look at CZ's lineup of compacts. CZ 75b Compact, PCR, and the P-01. They can be tuned to have excellent triggers and can be carried cocked and locked. Pretty great ergos too.
 
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moosemike

New member
TunnelRat said:
Eh...I think that's a bit subjective.



I'll be that guy and say that I honestly believe there are designs that I feel have improved on the semiautomatic handgun in general. Are they drastically better? I don't really think so, but I don't think time has stood still since 1911 and his Grace the Lord John Moses Browning blessed us with his presence. As for winning competitions all over the world, I've been under the impression that while 1911s are very popular stateside and certainly have entire segments that they occupy, that when it comes to the world as a whole I'd wager there are more popular designs.
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Yeah I truly believe John Brownings second attempt at a full size semi trumped his first attempt. And by the second time he was smart enough to go 9mm.
 
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Aguila Blanca

Staff
TunnelRay said:
As for winning competitions all over the world, I've been under the impression that while 1911s are very popular stateside and certainly have entire segments that they occupy, that when it comes to the world as a whole I'd wager there are more popular designs.
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I have two friends in Greece who shoot IPSC. They aren't master-class shooters, but they both shoot 1911s. Yes, there are lots of more prevalent brands there -- but that's driven as much as anything by the steep price of a 1911 compared to what they can buy guns made in the European Union for.

The M1911.org on-line magazine ran an article several months ago about gun laws in Chile. They got input from the Chilean coordinator for IPSC, who provided links to their activities. I was pleasantly surprised to see just how many 1911s showed up in the photos and videos.

https://youtu.be/5cs4VNBFTes

Ivan-02.jpg
 
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