What's better than a Boat tail?

Dangus

New member
Theoretically I would think you would get better velocities from a boat-tailed round, since it has so much more rear surface area upon which the propellant can push. Any thoughts on that?

Also, bullet shape doesn't matter at all to some extent during supersonic flight. The only things that matter are A) does the tip create a shockwave? B) does the entire bullet ride within that shockwave? On a proper bullet design, only a small portion of the tip of the bullet should be making contact with the air, the rest of it should be in a very low pressure shell riding within the supersonic pressure wave. In knives there is a thing called edge grind. You bevel the blade down like normal, but right at the edge, you have another, much steeper angle, which is narrow enough from the main bevel to still be very sharp, but geometrically strong enough, from the edge bevel. If a bullet were to have a normal front slope taper, and then a point taper, it would probably perform much much better at supersonic speeds, and only suffer very slightly at subsonic speeds. Look at some russian plane designs for proof of this concept, as they tend to direct the pressure wave with the tip of the plane so as to force it to hit the areas they want it to, improving supersonic maneuvering and reducing drag. Some US planes do this as well, but generally it seems to be more of an afterthought, though I think the F22 in many ways is an overpriced exception.

They refer to it as pushing the envelope, but it's more than just a term, in ballistics, it would be wise to remember the envelope and just how useful taking advantage of it can be. For an experiment, try taking a few bullets you handload and making a little tip angle starting about 1-3 mm back from the tip, depending on the calibur, you could even go as far as 5-6mm on a .50BMG round, and then test it. Then make an identical batch, but use some of that teflon coat you can buy for repairing cooking pans to coat that tip angle. If I were a reloader I would play around with this sorta stuff myself, because it's a sorely overlooked aspect of bullet design, as is the nature of the angles on most bullets. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, but that logic is often lost on bullet makers. With the exception of hollow ground, you don't see good quality beveled tools with a rounded angle on them.
 

Art Eatman

Staff in Memoriam
Dangus, the gas only "sees" the cross-sectional area of the bullet. Wouldn't matter, even if you reversed a pointy-nosed bullet in the case and shot it.

I ain't gonna go into the triggernometry and physics of it. :)

Art
 

George Hill

Staff Alumnus
"...can have a tendency to be less accurate"

Looking in "The Ultimate Sniper Manual" and White Feather's book... Wow. Those guys must suck at shooting groups. :rolleyes:

Boat Tail bullets have a greater potential for accuracy because there is no distortion to the base of the bullet.
This is also one of the reasons sharpshooters used to and still do often, use a little thing called a gas-check. Among it's benifits are protecting the base of the bullet.

The smallest deformation in the base can cause serious accuracy issues. This is why you sometimes see tracer rounds fly in a spiral pattern on its way down range... it burned unevenly causing a deformation to the shape of the base.

You can take a box of bullets... divide into thirds. Group 1 is the test group. Load as normal. Group two, take files or hammers and deform the tips. Then load as normal. Group 3, take files and hammers and deform the base before loading as normal.

Now, shoot these groups and see where the accuracy is most effected.

Let me clue you in... its in the base.

Boat tails protect the base while at the same time allow better aerodynamics for improved flight characteristics... Meaning they can be more accurate.
 

George Hill

Staff Alumnus
Also, bullet shape doesn't matter at all to some extent during supersonic flight. The only things that matter are A) does the tip create a shockwave? B) does the entire bullet ride within that shockwave?

Right... this is why jets don't need control surfaces at the trailing wing edges? :rolleyes:
 

Bogie

New member
At shorter ranges, flat base bullets tend to be more accurate. Why? They "go to sleep" faster and more reliably than boattails, and appear to be less affected by imperfections... Flat base bullets are also FAR easier to make in a uniform fashion, and uniformity and precision are paramount.

100 and 200 yard benchrest is VERY heavily into flatbase bullets. There are a few boattails out there, but not many. You start seeing a few at greater distances - Altho flatbases have started to appear in 1K yard competition...
 

trapshooter

Moderator
Barnes does have a machined .50 cal "sharp tip" wasp-waist that defies some things we "knew."

Cool. This actually makes sense. In the early days of supersonic fighters, it was discovered that a "wasp-waisted" fuselage was more efficient than a "straight" fuselage. I can't remember whether it was done for the transitional phase through the sound barrier, or after, but it did work.

I'm going to have to look into this.

Thanks, Labgrade!
 

Jamie Young

New member
The V-2 Rocket was Designed around the 8MM Mauser round. Looks Like a Boat Tail to me??? They almsot sent those into space;)

Were the Germans the First in using Boat Tail Bullets?
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
There is lots of printed material on this topic. Here's a quote from one.

"The base of the bullet is the full-diameter bottom of the bullet. It is one of the most critical areas of the bullet for accuracy. The gas seal or pressure ring area of the bullet must be even and perfectly square to the axis of the bullet. Any variation or unneveness in the base of the bullet will result in an uneven exit if gasses (sic) around the bullet when it clears the muzzle. This results in instability and loss of accuracy. Most bench-rest shooters use flat-based bullets for their 100- and 200- yard competitions, because the perfect exit of gases behind the flat, square base is optimal for accuracy. "

And, further on in the same book.

"Where boattail bullets come in to their own, however, is past 400 yards, where the benefits of reduced air resistance decrease the flight time of the bullet in contrast to its flat-based counterpart, making range estimation and windage adjustments less critical."

Here's a quote from a glossary of terms found on the web.

"Boat Tailing - Tapering that part of the projectile behind the driving band to reduce air resistance, especially at low velocities. This type of design gives a projectile greater range but tends to increase wear on the gun barrel. "

And another excerpt from the history of the .338 Lapua:

"Accuracy and velocity at long range are greatly facilitated by the design of the Lapua projectiles, which have had a reputation for extraordinary long-range performance since the 1930s, when Lapua developed a special bullet with rebated boat tail designed to give Maxim belt-fed machine guns unprecedented accuracy at ranges of 1,500 meters and beyond, while minimizing barrel erosion commonly associated with boat tail bullets of conventional design. "
 

DAVID NANCARROW

New member
FWIW, I have a box of Herters 308 cal 180 grain, and right on the box it calls the bullets "supersonic wasp waisted". They look like a miniature coke bottle with a pointed soft nose. I have shot a few of them at targets but not at game so I don't know how they would behave from a terminal ballistics standpoint. they are long for their weight compared to standard flat base and boat tailed designs.
 

labgrade

Member In Memoriam
From Sierra's 3rd Edition/Rifles:

All National Match records for 200, 300, 600 & 1000 yards are held with:

All 300 meter International Free Rifle records are held with:

Almost all benchrest records are held with:

All .30 cal & 7.62 Army Arsenal Match ammo & al 7.62 NATO & 5,56 ball ammo used by the US is:

boattails.

Page (#132) goes on to talk about work done at Frankford Arsenal regards bottails vs flatbase. Their result was bottails increase barrel life versus the same load with flatbase.

Personal experience shows to me that some guns like bottails better than flatbase & visa versa - for absolute best accuracy. But, for my uses, I can many times give up a tad of best accuracy for a tad better trajectory & downrange energy - depends.
 

Bogie

New member
If benchrest records were held by boattails, benchresters would be shooting them. Maybe some were set at one time, but I suspect that they've been surpassed...
 
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