Whatever happened to the 10mm comeback?

[JohnKSa]

By the way, there's no need to go boutique or reload to get 10mm ammo that's much hotter than .40S&W.

Hornady & Federal both have 180gr loadings spec'ed for 1275fps. Federal states that's out of a 5" tube.

Winchester has a 180gr loading they claim is 1240fps at the muzzle.

Federal has a 200gr loading that runs 1130fps out of a 5" bbl.

 

[stagpanther]

Sig also makes nice 10mm "off the shelf" ammo. I generally aim for energy of around 750 ftlbs (6" or better tube) in the handloads I do, but they tend to be warmer than off-the-shelf stuff (except for the likes of BB, doubletap and underwood).

 

[TruthTellers]

By the way, there's no need to go boutique or reload to get 10mm ammo that's much hotter than .40S&W.

Hornady & Federal both have 180gr loadings spec'ed for 1275fps. Federal states that's out of a 5" tube.

Winchester has a 180gr loading they claim is 1240fps at the muzzle.

Federal has a 200gr loading that runs 1130fps out of a 5" bbl.

The 200 grain Federal stuff is slow compared to handloaded ammo.

The Hornady XTP 10mm is fast, but that XTP bullet is questionable if pushed too fast. Out of a 6 inch barrel, I can see those bullets falling apart and out of a Glock 20, there's a video of the 180 grain load going 1140 fps and Hornady specs velocity from a 5 inch barrel.

Still not bad, but not what it could be. The 155 grain Hornady looks excellent from any barrel length.

 

[stagpanther]

The 200 grain Federal stuff is slow compared to handloaded ammo.

The Hornady XTP 10mm is fast, but that XTP bullet is questionable if pushed too fast. Out of a 6 inch barrel, I can see those bullets falling apart and out of a Glock 20, there's a video of the 180 grain load going 1140 fps and Hornady specs velocity from a 5 inch barrel.

Still not bad, but not what it could be. The 155 grain Hornady looks excellent from any barrel length.
__________________
Any good revolver > Any good semi auto

"We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."

Extreme penetrators are usually my "go to" bullets for redlined 9mm and 10mm handloads.

 

[JohnKSa]

The 200 grain Federal stuff is slow compared to handloaded ammo.

I posted that in response to multiple comments on this thread along the lines that if you don't reload or buy from the boutique shops, 10mm ammo is not much different from/only marginally different than .40S&W.

The loads I listed may not be as hot as is possible from the caliber, but they are factory loadings offered by major manufacturers that are clearly much hotter than .40S&W ammo.

 

[stagpanther]

My memory is a bit foggy--but I think the original specs for the Bren Ten were in the neighborhood of 180 grs at around 1,250 fps. Much has been said about the 40 being almost the same as the 10mm--but it's case is not designed to handle the pressures that the 10 can--nor is the weapon generally able to handle similar pressures. 400 to 500 ftlbs energy is very respectable and certainly more than adequate for conventional SD--but it's not in the same league of higher velocities and 600 to 700 ftlbs or more that are attainable with the 10.

 

[MTT TL]

You people that complain about ammo shipping prices... find online stores that offer free shipping over $50 or $99 or some other offer. I've bought ammo from Brownell's, Midway, and Sportsmansguide for years and have never paid for shipping.

Of course not. Those are three of the most expensive ammo sellers online. They build their cost directly in to the product (except for SG, which also builds it in to their "membership"). With the rare exceptions of closeout high end ammo I have never found any ammo in their online stores cheaper there than other places. Midway and Brownells are nice though because they carry a lot of ammo you can't find other places in rare calibers.

 

[stagpanther]

I get most of my stuff from Midway when I can--I usually receive it within a few days of ordering. Also, they have never failed to take back and fully refund anything I got that was defective, usually no questions asked--or very few--including some very high-end pricey items. It does pay, however, to batch order lots of stuff when ordering hazmat and ammo. Midway tends to pack a little better too.

 

[JERRYS.]

I posted that in response to multiple comments on this thread along the lines that if you don't reload or buy from the boutique shops, 10mm ammo is not much different from/only marginally different than .40S&W.

The loads I listed may not be as hot as is possible from the caliber, but they are factory loadings offered by major manufacturers that are clearly much hotter than .40S&W ammo.

can you point me to independent chrono data for those loads? I know companies seem to exaggerate their box flap velocities from time to time. I never got that high with the big 3-4 from my 5" Delta Elite or G20, though those guns did produce box flap velocities from Double Tap about 6 years ago. BTW I've read that now DT is even watering down their stuff though not as bad as the big 3-4.

 

[zincwarrior]

Its simple. Most of us aren't worried about being attacked by roaming gangs of hooligan bears.

 

[agtman]

Seriously, am I missing something?

Yes, for well over a decade at least. Possibly you have a medical condition known as informational myopia.

Depending on how you calculate it, the 10mm's resurgence - along with the increased availability of 'full-power' (i.e., real 10mm) ammo - started in the early 2000s, most notably with Texas Ammo Company and Double Tap leading the way. So let's call it about 16-17 years.

Because as far as I can see 10mm is no more popular than it was previously, nobody is offering any new handguns chambered in the cartridge, and the hype train appears to have come to an abrupt stop in 2018.

Huh?

The 10mm's surge in popularity through out the last 16yrs or so is what's led to more pistols being chambered for it today than at any time in the '80s or '90s. Like Sig's line of 10mm P220s, or Glock's adding the Gen4 G40 longslide to its 10mm line-up. Gun-makers don't do that for dying cartridges like the .45GAP or .357 Sig.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not a problem. You are herewith corrected.

New 10mm pistols are around .... and other platforms are coming out as well:

10mm PDW
https://www.extarusa.com/ep10.htm

 

[stagpanther]

It's simple--if you want to take advantage of what 10mm can offer--than go for it. If not, then don't; and move along please.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...real 10mm velocities..." What do you think that is?
In the old days when the Colt Delta Elite was the only 10mm pistol(think in terms of a 'stock' 1911A1 that shot just like one with the Norma ammo.) and Norma the only available ammo, a Colt Rep, at a shoot(pins and plates. Great fun.) up here, provided both to anyone who wanted to play with it. The guy even said it was no match for the assorted "race guns" at the shoot. I don't recall the bullet weight, but at the time Norma loaded 200, 165 and 170 grain bullets. 200gr JTC @ 1200 fps, 165gr JHP @ 1400 fps, and 170gr JHP @ 1300 fps.
The result of my playing with it was, "It's a 1911A1. The 10mm is pretty much the same as the .45 ACP. It doesn't do anything the ACP won't."

 

[COSteve]

"It's a 1911A1. The 10mm is pretty much the same as the .45 ACP. It doesn't do anything the ACP won't."

As the owner of both a Glock 20L (6" slide and 6" 10mm barrel) and 21L (6" slide and 6" 45acp/45 Super barrel) I have no grudge for or against one platform as I have, handload for, and shoot all three.

I shoot all three calibers in my custom 6" Glock longslide I developed way back 15 yrs ago in 2004. With thousands of rds of both full power 10mm and thousands of rds of 45acp / 45acp+P and in the last 5 or 6 years, full power 45 Super, I'm comfortable with evaluating the performance of all 3 calibers.

So, I am confident that I can give an accurate assessment of all 3 calibers and that assessment is that O'Heir's statement above is patently false as both factual and anecdotal evidence abounds disputing his claim.

Pistol Platform: Glock G20/21L 6" German steel slide, Convertible pistol I developed in 2004. The 45 cal barrel is a 6" Jarvis while the 6" 10mm barrel is KKM's 1st ever 45-10MM conversion barrel I commissioned Kevin to build for me in mid 2004. Neither barrel has a muzzle brake.

Chrono Test Circumstances: Oehler 35 Chrono set up at my range - 6,100ft asl on an 84° day. 10 shot strings averaged.

Results:

G21L 45acp: 200grn Speer Gold Dot bullets over full published load of Unique Powder in Winchester 45acp brass w/CCI 300 (LP) primer: 1,014fps producing 457ft/lbs ME
G20L 10mm: 200grn Hornady XTPHP bullets over full published load of Power Pistol Powder in Starline 10 Brass w/CCI 350 (LPM) primer: 1,350fps producing 809ft/lbs ME

As anyone can see, the 200grn 10mm produces 33% more Velocity and 77% more Muzzle Energy in the same platform, on the same range, on the same day, with the same chrono.

The performance of the rds is even more dramatic when one considers that the smaller diameter 10mm with it's higher BC, has a flatter trajectory giving it a hunting advantage.

Now, lets look at the 45 Super vs the 10mm to see if a more powerful .45 cal than the .45acp/.45acp+P can outperform it.

Pistol Platform: Same as above.

Chrono Test Circumstances: Same as above.

G21L 45 Super: 200grn Speer Gold Dot over full published load of Power Pistol Powder in Starline 45 Super Brass w/CCI 350 (LPM) primer: 1,307fps producing 758ft/lbs ME
G20L 10mm: 165grn Speer Gold Dot bullets over full published load of Power Pistol Powder in Starline 10 Brass w/CCI 350 (LPM) primer: 1,589fps producing 925ft/lbs ME
G20L 10mm: 180grn Hornady XTPHP bullets over full published load of Power Pistol Powder in Starline 10 Brass w/CCI 350 (LPM) primer: 1,479fps producing 874ft/lbs ME
G20L 10mm: 200grn Hornady XTPHP bullets over full published load of Power Pistol Powder in Starline 10 Brass w/CCI 350 (LPM) primer: 1,350fps producing 809ft/lbs ME

The 10mm can produce significantly better performance when shooting a 165grn 10mm loads as they produce 29% more Velocity and 22+% more Muzzle Energy than the 200grn 45 Super.

Further, the 10mm can produce significantly better performance when shooting a 180grn 10mm loads as they produce 13% more Velocity and 15+% more Muzzle Energy than the 200grn 45 Super.

And finally, as identified above, even the 200grn 10mm load beats the 45 Super's in both velocity and muzzle energy. And, as I said before, the performance of the 10mm rds is even more advanced when one considers that the smaller diameter 10mm with it's higher BC, has a flatter trajectory giving it a hunting advantage.

Conclusion: If you want something to punch holes in paper at close handgun ranges with a semi-auto handgun, a 45acp will do as well as the 10mm. However, so will a 40s&w, a 9mm, or even a .380. That's not the point of the 10mm. It's a high performance caliber suited very well to take hunting either as a primary, or as I do when I go 'woods walking' in the Rockies, as a sidearm for protection against both 2 and 4 legged threats.

 

[agtman]

If you want something to punch holes in paper at close handgun ranges with a semi-auto handgun, a 45acp will do as well as the 10mm. However, so will a 40s&w, a 9mm, or even a .380. That's not the point of the 10mm. It's a high performance caliber suited very well to take hunting either as a primary, or as I do when I go 'woods walking' in the Rockies, as a sidearm for protection against both 2 and 4 legged threats.

BINGO!!! We have a winner! ...

Now give that man a chicken dinner!

 

[agtman]

10mm stops the Big 'Uns:

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/al...k-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/#axzz62SYjCFq6

 

[Road_Clam]

Sig also makes nice 10mm "off the shelf" ammo.

Yes they do. Sig is a New Hampshire based company and very close to where I live. When I initially bought my Kimber 10mm it was very fussy with ammo. It was FTF'ing consistently with Sellier & Bellot 180gr TC ammo. I happen to be at one of my LGS's and to my surprise they had Sig 180 gr RN 10mm ammo. I was kind of surprised, I didn't know there was a RN profile bullet available in .40 . To my delight my Kimber run's the Sig RN ammo flawlessly. Great stuff, and reasonably priced for 10mm (I believe I paid $22 for a box)

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/10mm-180gr-elite-ball-fmj.html

 

[Rangers13]

"...real 10mm velocities..." What do you think that is?

In the old days when the Colt Delta Elite was the only 10mm pistol(think in terms of a 'stock' 1911A1 that shot just like one with the Norma ammo.) and Norma the only available ammo, a Colt Rep, at a shoot(pins and plates. Great fun.) up here, provided both to anyone who wanted to play with it. The guy even said it was no match for the assorted "race guns" at the shoot. I don't recall the bullet weight, but at the time Norma loaded 200, 165 and 170 grain bullets. 200gr JTC @ 1200 fps, 165gr JHP @ 1400 fps, and 170gr JHP @ 1300 fps.

The result of my playing with it was, "It's a 1911A1. The 10mm is pretty much the same as the .45 ACP. It doesn't do anything the ACP won't."

Really. Well the 10 mm will take down a Grizzly Bear. A 45 ACP isn’t. So there are differences and if you look in Alaska a bow hunter tracking deer blood was charge by an 850lb Grizzly and took it down with two shots from his GLOCK 20 10mm. Has the photo and report from Wildlife authority. Why don’t you go test your theory and see what happens. Go back to sleep.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JohnKSa]

can you point me to independent chrono data for those loads? I know companies seem to exaggerate their box flap velocities from time to time.

Looks like there's a lot of it out there if you poke around a bit. It's a little tricky though since some of the loadings are new and chrono data isn't always dated.

Anyway, this source shows the Federal 180gr loading at about 1230fps out of a 4.6"bbl. I think Federal claims that one runs 1275fps out of a 5" tube. So you're not wrong that factory #s are often a bit optimistic. That tends to happen with all calibers, not just 10mm.

However, keeping in mind what the goal is, we see that even without the extra 40-50fps that the website figures tacked on to reality (ignoring the barrel length difference in the test gun to what Federal used for their testing), the ammo is definitely much hotter than .40S&W.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10mm-auto-self-defense-ammo-ballistic-gel-tests/

If you're really interested, it shouldn't be difficult to find 10mm factory ammo from major manufacturers that runs much hotter than .40S&W. That has always been true, although I would say that the selection is better now than I can remember in the past.

 

[JERRYS.]

that 180gr. was a trophy bonded solid.... I'd like to see some self defense rounds.... what I'd like to see is a 165gr+ JHP going 1,300 fps from a G20 or 5" 1911. a round that can be found on the shelf of a local gun shop that doesn't cost $1 per round. the Win STHP tried to come close but you see they are over 100 fps slower than advertised and are at that $1 per round threshold.