What would the crime rate look like if everyone had a large dog?

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Futo Inu

New member
Well, I was gonna post a pic of my beautiful 94 pound Akita, until I read this:

"Having dogs is not allways a deterrent, one of my freinds HAD 3 big Pit Bulls. Good fence around house+alarm.Someone shot the dogs,drove over fence,broke in house stole his guns,and they were in a safe!Safe&guns still missing."

Now I'm not in the mood. One of the saddest things I've ever heard - if it were me anyway - to simultaneously lose the most important things to me in the world (my dogs), and second most prized possessions (my guns). :(
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
A dog is only PART of an integrated defensive plan.

That's the same for a gun.

That's the same for good locks.

That's the same for an alarm system.

Used individually, or together WITHOUT an integrated plan, they're not nearly as effective as used in a methodical, planned, manner.

For example, what's the use of having all of those if you never turn the alarm on, or don't lock your doors? Not much.

John,

Yes, unfortunatly, there ARE dogs that are simply vicious from birth.

Far more often, however, the dog is a product of its environment and treatment at the hands of its owner.

There may well be an untrainable dog or two out there. I might have seen one some years ago. Luckily it wasn't vicious.
 
W

wolfman97

New member
I have a large dog. Unfortunately, he doesn't fit in an IWB holster so I can't take him everywhere I might need him to protect me.

If anyone is seriously interested in large dogs, I just did a whole lot of Internet searching for good family/protection breeds -- all in size Large.

I originally wanted a good German Shepherd but I was unhappy with most of what I found -- too small, odd body shape that they breed nowadays, hip problems, etc.

Then I found a Black Russian Terrier. It is a rare breed, expensive, but has great traits. Great family dog, but don't you dare mess with it. It was bred by the Russian military to be their guard dogs because they didn't have large quantities of dogs like German Shepherds. It is jet black and likes to confront strangers in the dark by running full bore into their chest. (Keep in mind that they weigh up to 120 pounds)

After additional research, I settled on a Shiloh Shepherd. It is a variety of German Shepherd bred to be a good family dog, not have the hip problems that German Shepherds have, and it is bred to be huge -- minimum size for a male is 120 pounds, and 140 to 160 is preferred. They are gentle as they come, and most have an extremely mellow personality, but I wouldn't want to be the person to test their reaction to a threat.

Something to consider if you are actually serious about the large dog.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
Wolfman,

Who was the breeder from whom you got the Shiloh?

Unfortunately, hip problems, while rarer among the Shilohs (and the Kings, their kissing cousins separated by politics) are not unknown.
 
G

gryphon

New member
I'd rather have a handgun.

My handgun does not have a mind of it's own that for aome unknown reason will decide to go off and "bite" someone.
My handgun will only bite, when I order it to, PERIOD.
 
S

Selfdfenz

New member
I was into dog training for many years. I never trained the dogs of others but I taught the owners how to do it.
Wished I had a nickle for every time my dogs alerted me to a potential threat. It's remarkable how just a little obedience training turns the average dog into a better part of the family. Teaching a family pet to ALERT is the simplest thing on earth. A very natural thing for the dog and a very useful characteristic.

JMHO

S-
 
B

Blackhawk

New member
Adopting a large dog is a serious commitment. They turn a lot of chow into crap, and if you keep them as working dogs, they're high upkeep. If they're pets, you don't mind the upkeep as much.

A friend of mine has two Rotties as premises and perimeter security on his 4 acre upscale suburban bedroom burg estate. People, deer, skunks, etc., don't bother coming or staying around. Thing is, he's had to replace them 3 times in about 12 years due to the routine hazards they encountered. I feel sorry for them because they're not let indoors to lounge on the furniture, lie in the doorways, and generally make themselves at home.

For now, I'll stick to my electronic gizmos and guns.... :)
 
J

jimmy

New member
The large dog that attacked my wife without provocation two weeks ago actually increased the crime rate as far as I'm concerned. It went for her throat but she dodged, so it got her in the face. She has puncture wounds in the forehead, bridge of her nose, and chin, plus a torn lip. Luckily some people got this animal off of her before it caused any more injury. The city animal control department has it under observation, whatever that means.

The owner of the dog hasn't muttered so much as a grunt of apology but has only, so I hear, whined about how his monster has been locked up.

Obviously the situation could have been worse. First, my wife could have died in a pool of her own blood. Second, if I'd been there, yep, I'd very possibly have shot the dog dead. Then I'd have been in deep legal trouble in this left-wing, anti-gun area.

BTW, both my wife and I liked dogs and, on the whole, we still do. However, she's afraid of them now, tough gal though she is, and I don't blame her.

:mad:
 
W

WESHOOT2

New member
PAN-FRY or BROIL?

Was hoping to see some recipes............

Seriously, who here has NOT seen (or at least heard of) the 'family dog' go insane?
When all my kids are carrying THEN I'll get a dog.






-------------------------------------

"got salt"
 
B

Blackhawk

New member
Jimmy,

Sorry about that, but you raise a good point.

I see some people walking their large dogs on retractable leashes every so often. The dogs are obviously NOT trained, or they wouldn't be constantly leaving the heel position to sniff and investigate everything within a 20' radius of their "master." If the dog decides to go after something or somebody, there's no way that the owners I see are going to be able to restrain it.

Besides, if the dog's job is to guard his "domain," parading him around the neighborhood isn't a good practice. It teaches him that his territory is wherever he goes with his master.

Seems like a CCW is necessary just to take a walk in the neighborhood.... :(
 
F

Futo Inu

New member
Yep, traits that I look for in a good guard dog:

1. Good breeding (most important - reputable breeder who can explained how he has focused on health, temperament, working ability, and conformation structure, in that order of priority, for generations).
2. NOT a barking breed (don't want the neighbors turning my dog into sausage)
3. SHORT-haired breed (I love my Akita and Sib Husky, but will never have another long-coated breed or breed with an undercoat).
4. Not a breed that has an instinct to escape and run (again, love my Sib Husky, but have had to chase her down several times, and nearly lost her).
5. Good sized breed with protective instincts.

So, what breed fits the bill best? The Belgain Malinois, of course. :) Have one; gonna get a pup in next few years.

Other breeds to consider as good guard dogs: Rotties, Akitas, GSDs, Bouvier de Flandres, Boxers, Dobies (but see #1 above - very very important with popular breeds). Even retrievers can be good guard dogs, depending on their temperament and training.

Then, you MUST train any large dog by taking them to obedience classes and working with them at home, and making sure they know you are boss at all times, especially during the first 18 months of their lives, when they will occasionally test you - by correcting them sternly for not obeying, making them sit before getting a treat, etc. Highly recommend a book called "The Art of Raising a Puppy", written by the Monks of New Skete, NY, who raise GSDs for people.
 
S

Schmit

Staff Alumnus
I agree with Futo (i.e. 1 - 5) and most importantly the Training!

Training is probably the most important thing there is with any dog, be it large or small. However, it is more important with the larger dogs just due to their size. The more you expect from your dog (working) the more training involved.

Most people do not want to commit the time to proper training. While a lot are willing to commit the $$ for training they are unwilling or unable to commit the time needed to the continuous reinforcement of that training. That is one of the biggest problems. If you are going to have your dog trained (at whatever level) you have to continuously work with them reinforcing that training.

Futo, I'm currently considering a Cane Corso as my next breed (my Rotty is getting up there in years and probably only has not more then a few left).
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
Blackhawk,

Adopting ANY animal is a serious commitment. Or at least it should be. It's not unlike having a minor child. You've got to provide for the animal, train it properly, and take responsibility for its actions.

"The dogs are obviously NOT trained, or they wouldn't be constantly leaving the heel position to sniff and investigate...."

An overly broad and not necessarily true statement.

When I take my girls for a walk in the evening, I release them from heel position. Why? Because it's THEIR walk. If I need to, I heel them. If I don't need to, I let them wander out in front and let them sniff. Why? Becuase it's what dogs do, and they enjoy it.

I do not, however, use a retractable lead. I don't like those things.

Wes,

Yes, some family dogs can go "insane." That normally is a function of over/inbreeding or mistreatment. There are also probably some animals, the same as some humans, that are prone to mental instability.


Jimmy,

Most states require that the dog be quarantined for a certain period of time after it bites someone. It is, quite bluntly, a rabies quarantine.

Has the owner provide evidence of rabies vaccination?

Have those records been cross checked against the vet who supposedly vaccinated the dog (I've seen fraudulent rabies vaccinations before).

Have you present a bill to the owner for your wife's injuries?

Have you retained legal counsel?
 
B

Blackhawk

New member
When I take my girls for a walk in the evening, I release them from heel position. Why? Because it's THEIR walk.
Click to expand...
No. You release them because they're not in an area that mandates that they be on a leash at all times, or you just choose to ignore the leash laws... :D

The dogs I'm talking about don't respond to their masters' tugs, commands, yells, or hissy fits. They're just big dogs out to poop and piddle on the pathways.

The dogs aren't to blame -- they're dogs, after all. The owners? That's a different story! Untrained dogs of breeds known for aggressive dispositions should be trained from puppyhood. If owners don't take care of that, they have no business owning them.

In decades past, I'd handle aggressive dogs charging me on the sidewalk with their growling, barking, and snarling by raising my arms up and out and charging them with a good imitation of a loud growling, snapping, and snarling animal myself. That worked everytime because I wasn't in the dog's territory, and they weren't trained attack dogs. It's easy to tell they weren't because a trained dog won't go after you unless you're in HIS territory.

I'm too old for that now. If one aggressively charges me -- well, he's not going to get that close....
 
J

jimmy

New member
Mike--to respond to your questions:

Has the owner provided evidence of rabies vaccination? Yes.

Have those records been cross checked against the vet who supposedly vaccinated the dog (I've seen fraudulent rabies vaccinations before). No--I'll look into this.

Have you presented a bill to the owner for your wife's injuries? Yes, and she's already been reimbursed for the emergency room treatment and medication. (But it looks to me like the reimbursement is coming not from the dog owner, but from his family. I won't speculate about his household.)

Have you retained legal counsel? My wife works in a law office and has counsel readily available. She prefers not to go to law over the incident if it can be avoided. As long as the medical bills are paid, I guess she figures she's square just to be alive.

Meanwhile, she's begun carrying a stick when she walks in the neighborhood or visits friends with dogs.

Tks.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
Blackhawk,

My girls are on their leads at ALL times.

The only times they are not is when they are in an area enclosed by a fence, either in my back yard or a friend's back yard or the dog park near my house.

My entire county has a leash ordinance, and I don't feel like catching a $75 X 2 fine.
 
M

Mike Irwin

Staff
Jimmy,

Sounds like you've got all of the bases covered.

I wouldn't worry too much about the possibility of a fraudulent rabies certificate. They're rare, and it's more of a "last check that needs to be done" kind of thing.

A friend and his wife were out walking a couple of years ago when a mid-sized dog came charging out and across the street at them. It zeroed in on my friend's wife and bit her on the ankle and calf, which resulted in my friend giving the dog a good solid boot. The owner saw that and really went ballistic. From what he said it was a really iffy situation for a few minutes. The owner's going nuts, his wife is bleeding, the dog is slinking off, and then a neighbor calls the police, and they take care of the situation. That one got a little tense later as the owner either couldn't or wouldn't provide evidence of rabies vaccination, and they thought she was going to have to have rabies shots, but then the owner popped up with the information, and it cross checked OK.
 
K

Karanas

New member
I don't know about the crime rate, but I can imagine what the sidewalks would look like if everyone had a large dog.

Watch your step! ;)
 
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