What to Recommend for My Dad

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Tucker 1371

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My dad bought a Kimber Pro Carry II, against my recommendation. He's a fairly new shooter and got his heart set on a commander sized 1911. I tried to talk him into a steel frame gun, preferably a full size, but he went for the Kimber over a similarly priced Colt Commander and even passed up a DW Valor used for $700 :eek: because it was a full size.

Now we've both found that the dang thing is a nightmare to strip down with its bushing-less design. It kicks like an air weight .357 Mag and he has a hard time consistently hitting an 18" gong at 7 yds with it. He's become so recoil sensitive that he leans away from the gun, anticipates his shots, and trembles before the trigger breaks.

Add to that the fact that the gun can't make it through a box of 230gr FMJs without having a failure to return to battery. With the gun having so few rounds through it (300 ish) I can't see it being an out of tune extractor. I've told him to pick up some McCormick Power Mags and see if those solve the reliability issues.

He had the opportunity this past weekend to shoot my CZ SP01 and really liked it. He was marginally more accurate with it and my mom's Glock 19 (she listened to me). He mentioned selling the Kimber and picking up a 9mm. I was leaning towards nudging him in the direction of a P01 Omega Convertible. He's not too keen on anything other than SA guns with manual safeties and steel frames or I would tell him to look at a Glock 19 as well.

What say you TFL? Should he just keep the Kimber and learn how to shoot it well?
 
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45Gunner

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FWIW: I have six different Kimbers and all of them are great shooters, including my Pro Carry and Master Pro Carry. Each Kimber I have has been extremely accurate out of the box. Taking down the Pro Carry can be tricky until one gets used to it but after a couple of times, it is no more difficult than any other 1911. If you don't have that little Kimber tool, straighten out a paper clip and then put a 90 degree bend on one end...works great.

One of the key elements to hitting the target is to have a proper grip on the gun. If your gun is moving around in your hands, you will be lucky to hit a barn door. And when the proper grip is mastered, a proper stance, trigger control, and breath control all play a substantial role in getting off good shots with a tight grouping.

Has your Dad done a dominant eye exercise? Seems in the recent past I have seen cross dominance with some of my students, i.e., right handed shooter with left dominant eye and vice versa.

In summation, before you blame the gun, make sure all the ducks are in a row. Its very easy to blame the equipment when the technique is poor or non-existant.
 
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gyvel

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When you buy a Kimber, you are paying for a "name." It's a shame that he did not choose the Colt Commander.
 
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Tucker 1371

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It's a shame that he did not choose the Colt Commander
Click to expand...

I almost crapped my pants when he shot down the DW for $700, if I had been in the same state I would have jumped all over it but Uncle Sam has some silly rules about interstate handgun sales.

45Gunner,

I at least wanted him to get a heavier gun, I grossly underestimated the difference in recoil between an alloy frame gun and an all steel one and told him if he really liked the Kimber it would probably be ok. I shot a magazine through the Kimber and the recoil surprised me quite bit. Granted my experience is limited to Govt size 1911s with steel frames.

The takedown was difficult for me, we did end up using a paper clip but almost got it stuck in the guide rod twice. He looked a little intimidated by the difficulty I was having and I don't know if it's something he will attempt himself.

He is left handed but right eye dominant, prefers to shoot right handed. I've coached him on his grip a little and that somewhat improved his shooting for a couple of shots but halfway through the magazine he reverts back to this jacked up grip with his firing hand thumb tucked under the palm of his support hand. I think the recoil may have a part in that.

Also, he says he leans back because of his eyes not being able to focus on the sights so close up... He is near sighted with astigmatism. I think this is likely the biggest source of his inaccuracy and probably screws up his sight alignment.

I don't doubt that his gun probably has potential, it shot great in my hands even if I didn't prefer the recoil. I just think, with him being a newer shooter, it's probably not the right first gun for defensive carry. Since he really likes the 1911 platform and manual of arms I was leaning towards recommending either a DW Guardian (if he can afford it), some other reliable 9mm 1911, or a compact CZ75 variant in 9mm.
 
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Spats McGee

Administrator
I'm going to have to go with "get something else," rather than "keep & learn to shoot the Kimber." I don't know how old your dad is, but mine's going on 75 and if I told him "learn to shoot" something that kicked so hard," he'd tell me to go fly a kite.

In addition to the things already mentioned . . . . If he's set on a 1911, SA makes a couple of 9mm 1911s with 4" barrels (EMP lightweight champion & Range Officer compact). If he's open to other mechanisms, I believe all of the following can be had in 9mm with a thumb safety: the XD series, M&P series, SR9c, third generation S&Ws.

Good luck!
 
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Jim Watson

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I am likely as old as Dad, but I have been shooting a long time.
My Colt Commander .45 has more recoil than I can manage and shoot well these days. I deal with it by handloading somewhat reduced ammo.
I am shooting a 200 grain XTP JHP at 829 fps instead of the Hornady factory 912 fps. That is about as low as I can go without changing the recoil spring. It does make a difference, I can shoot it comfortably for a short practice session. My target loads are considerably lighter and I shoot them in steel framed guns.

If you don't handload, he might do better trading that little jewel in on said CZ.
 
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DA/SA Fan

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Get him to check out a 9mm single action EAA Match Elite or a CZ 75 SA. No sense in trying to use a gun that isn't fun for him to shoot.
 
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Cheapshooter

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First, there is always an acceptable reason to violate my #1 rule. A "one gun" person buying the wrong gun. One they can't shoot right, is certainly one.
Sounds like he bought a gun with his heart, not his mind. Now he needs to do some research. Including going to a range that rents guns so he has an opportunity to try several guns. He may not even be comfortable with a 9MM when he starts shooting one a lot. Yes, range time, ammo, and gun rental can cost some money, but if he can afford a Kimber, he should just consider the cost as an investment in research toward getting the perfict gun.
 
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osbornk

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Being old (68), cheap and living in southwestern Virginia just east Tennessee, I bought a full size RIA tactical in 9mm. I feels, shoots and aims just like my Ruger 22/45 nut with very mild recoil. I think we old codgers should adjust to reality and 9mm is a good caliber for us and a steel full size 1911 is easier for our shaky hands to control.
 
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boatdoc173

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IF the valor was still available--I would get him to trade the kimber for it

I am a big DW,CZ fan and not big on Kimber(my personal preference.. no insult to kimber intended).. so I am biased.

let dad do as he pleases. He will either learn to love the gun or dump it in good time.

sounds like both parents could use more training to shoot better-- maybe encouraged that. If he cannot get the results intended with the Kimber, he will then part with it
 
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Tucker 1371

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Thanks for all the responses y'all. My dad is 51, just FYI. And unfortunately the Valor is no longer available, he bought the Kimber about a year ago (we really need a banging head against wall smiley).

I think it will probably be difficult to talk him into a full sized steel frame gun. I think, in either .45 or 9mm, that probably would've been best to start with.

I did send him up a list with some of yalls recommendations with prices, DW Guardian, Springfield Compact RO, used Colt Lightweight Combat Commander (O4662XSE), and the CZ75 Compact 9mm. His response was:

"Those all sound like great options. My Kimber is good for now. I won't have the $$ for awhile to make the transition to a 9mm. But I can start looking at those guns; you know how long it takes me to make up my mind. I will definitely need your help & advice."

So I told him if he was going to have to hang on to the Kimber for a while then he at least needed to sort out its reliability issues. I told him to order some McCormick Powermags or see if one of the local shops had some Wilson's. If those don't fix it then it needs the extractor retuned.

I'm not sure how much the astigmatism is playing a part in his shooting problems but he says he cannot see the sights without leaning away from it the pistol. He was nervous to try the thumbs forward grip at first since his firing hand thumb rode so close to the slide but he tried it and it worked for him, I just couldn't get him to consistently maintain that same grip. Money and time, at the moment, are at a premium for my dad I would like to be able to talk him into taking an NRA basic pistol class or something similar but I don't see it happening. I will mention it though.
 
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shaunpain

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A couple of things: getting his grip sorted out is crucial to his enjoyment and accuracy, but that will take lots of time with it dry firing at home. It will be up to him to want to learn correct grip which can take some time to master. Going down in bullet weight might ease up the recoil a bit. Unfortunately, the Pro Carry takedown is what it is, and it just plain sucks. My brother has one and while it doesn't like HPs, it cycles all FMJ just fine. It was ejecting brass straight up into his forehead and he just dealt with it until I told him I refuse to fire it until it's fixed. I took it to my bench for him and had to adjust the extractor as it had little to no tension. Fixed the problem. His Kimber is working fine now but it doesn't make me like the gun any more than I did. It appears dad will have to live with the Kimber for now, so whatever he can do to shoot it better is your only prescription. Tune the extractor, fix his grip and go down in bullet weight. Who knows, it may work wonders. Best of luck.
 
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Tucker 1371

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He lives 2 hours south of me in GA, I don't get all the time I would like to give him pointers and observe his shooting. This past weekend I did show him a proper grip and I have sent him a few pictures of people holding 1911s using the thumbs forward grip.

Since I can't see through his eyes I really don't know what role his astigmatism might be playing in his shooting but I imagine it can't be good. Are there any specific pistol sights he could get that may improve his ability to acquire a good sight picture, at least good enough for defensive purposes? I've been really interested in the XS Big Dot sights for my own carry gun here recently and those seem like they may help.
 
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Jim Watson

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I have seen few people (including me) to stay with the Big Dot Express sights.

I shoot mostly fibre optic front, plain black rear sights, although I am liking the looks of Trijicon HD sights, a tritium lamp with a BIG BRIGHT colored surround.

I manage astigmatism with glasses.
My bifocals are adequate for typical self defense ranges, I have shooting glasses with the right lens ground to focus on the sights for target shooting.
 
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AVG

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I am an old guy (75). I have every kind of gun from auto's to revolvers. Get him a CZ 9mm or if he can't see to good like me a S&W CORE 9mm put a red dot on it and he will be good to go :)
 
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TCgungeek

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I here all the time that people "need" a manual safety. If you buy a quality holster that covers the trigger and keep you finger off the noise maker when you draw, you will never have accidental discharge. I carry a Glock pistol everywhere, work, out in public, out in the woods. I have fell on it, bumped it and knocked it and it has never gone off.
 
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RCL

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Tucker 1371

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I understand your point TCgungeek, but the Glock isn't the one size fits all pistol everyone makes it out to be. Some people just don't like it and, to that extent, I respect my dad's preferences. He just hates how they feel in his hand and loves the 1911.

AVG, the RMR, mini red dot would be great for him as a range gun if it were ever in his budget. But, seeing as how he is having a difficult time just switching pistols, it's going to be that much more difficult financially for him to get a new pistol AND an optic. I am, however, gently pushing him in the direction of a CZ or other heavy 9mm handgun.

RCL, something like those sights in a night sight or hi-viz variety would be nearly perfect I think.
 
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