What makes a firearm an assault rifle
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
chris in va
New member
Mmm, it can be a noun as well. Assault Ship comes to mind.
Look, we can split hairs all we want. The AR is a powerful rifle, mainly due to it's capacity. We have to ALL be very responsible gun owners and keep the things locked up as best we can afford when not in use.
They're saying the 15yo also used one, but not confirmed. I want to know how Adam Lanza got a hold of his mother's.
Wow guys, get your English right. In "assault ship" Assault modifies the noun. Add the word adjective to your dictionary 
And as for a verb, yes assault is a verb or an adjective.
As for the rest. These weapons are supposed to look dangerous, and be dangerous. They are intended for us to keep and be able to use if necessary to protect our lives, freedoms, and our nation from those how would take them away.
So get on your A game fellas.
And as for a verb, yes assault is a verb or an adjective.
As for the rest. These weapons are supposed to look dangerous, and be dangerous. They are intended for us to keep and be able to use if necessary to protect our lives, freedoms, and our nation from those how would take them away.
So get on your A game fellas.
berettaprofessor
New member
Any journalistic idiot with a pen.
here we go...again...
And even those who are intelligent enough to understand the terminology can make mistakes, as show in the above quote.
It boils down to the usage of language, translation, and context. We are talking about two nearly identical terms, yet each one refers to very different specific things, in law, and a third thing as well, in common usage. Let's look at the first two, to begin with.
ASSAULT RIFLE
This term was coined by Adolf Hitler. Leaving aside the rather interesting history, the basic facts are that when Hitler was shown the weapon, he decreed that it was to be the Sturmgewehr. Sturm is German which translates into English as either "storm" or "assault", in the military sense of storming or assaulting an objective. Sturm also translates as "storm" in the meterological sense, depending on the context.
Gehwehr translates as rifle. Sturmgewehr is assault rifle.
After the war, the shooting community adopted the main features of the Sturmgewhr to define the class of arms called assault rifles. The primary features are selective fire (the ability to fire both semi auto or full auto on demand) a detatchable magazine, and an "intermediate power" cartridge. If it had all of these features, it was an assault rifle. If it didn't, it wasn't.
(intermediate power cartridge was loosely defined as more powerful than the standard WWII era pistol cartridge, and less powerful than the standard WWII infantry rifle cartridges)
All other features usually found on most assault rifles (bayonet lug, pistol grip, etc..) were just cosmetic, and immaterial to the classification of the gun.
Under US law, all weapons capable of full auto fire are legally machineguns, and fall under the regulation of the National Firearms Act of 1934.
The ONLY assault rifles legally in the hands of US citizens are those that were registered with the ATF before May 19 1986, on which the $200 tax has been paid, multiple layers of background checks have been performed, and the owners have obtained written permission from the local head of law enforcement. NO new ones have been allowed since congress closed the registry in 86.
ASSAULT WEAPON
This is a term made up by the anti gunners, assisted by the media, and codified in law in 1994, thanks to politicians.
It went like this...Stockton Schoolyard shooting, semi auto AK47 used. Media screams, he used an assault rifle!!! Sanity responds with "No, he used a rifle. Assault rifles are select fire (semi & full auto)."
Media screams "He used a semi automatic assault rifle!!!"
Now, "Semiautomatic assault rifle" is quite a mouthful, and not the optimum sound byte. Although the media did persist with the term for some time, by 94 they had all settled on the name "assault weapon". And the weapons they were calling assault weapons were semi auto rifles, pistols, and shotguns, if they had a given combination of the cosmetic features that were on the "evil features" list. NOT machineguns, NOT assault rifles, SEMI AUTO firearms, many models by name, and all others if they met the criteria on the list.
This was codified into Fed law in the 1994 AWB (assault weapons ban), and several states also passed state laws at this time that were virtual carbon copies of the Fed law (without the sunset clause), or were even more restrictive.
Note that the recent New York SAFE act has seriously increased the restrictions and expanded the list of banned features over the still in effect 1994 NY AWB.
In effect, ASSAULT WEAPON means what ever they write into law saying it is.
Those are the big two, and the anti's deliberately chose the term assault weapon to confuse the issue. The semi auto AR that they say is an assault weapon looks identical to the M16 that is an assault rifle. The semi auto AK looks identical to the full auto one. Unless you can see the selector in the full auto fire position, you cannot tell from a picture which one is whch, AR, AK, and many other semi autos look just like the full auto ones.
The third thing clouding the discussion is the context of the word assault, in English. Some people say that any weapon used to assault someone is an assault weapon. And, sadly, in English, they are correct, but in the wrong context. When discussing things in law, we must be precise, AND correct. Even if the other side isn't.
And even those who are intelligent enough to understand the terminology can make mistakes, as show in the above quote.
It boils down to the usage of language, translation, and context. We are talking about two nearly identical terms, yet each one refers to very different specific things, in law, and a third thing as well, in common usage. Let's look at the first two, to begin with.
ASSAULT RIFLE
This term was coined by Adolf Hitler. Leaving aside the rather interesting history, the basic facts are that when Hitler was shown the weapon, he decreed that it was to be the Sturmgewehr. Sturm is German which translates into English as either "storm" or "assault", in the military sense of storming or assaulting an objective. Sturm also translates as "storm" in the meterological sense, depending on the context.
Gehwehr translates as rifle. Sturmgewehr is assault rifle.
After the war, the shooting community adopted the main features of the Sturmgewhr to define the class of arms called assault rifles. The primary features are selective fire (the ability to fire both semi auto or full auto on demand) a detatchable magazine, and an "intermediate power" cartridge. If it had all of these features, it was an assault rifle. If it didn't, it wasn't.
(intermediate power cartridge was loosely defined as more powerful than the standard WWII era pistol cartridge, and less powerful than the standard WWII infantry rifle cartridges)
All other features usually found on most assault rifles (bayonet lug, pistol grip, etc..) were just cosmetic, and immaterial to the classification of the gun.
Under US law, all weapons capable of full auto fire are legally machineguns, and fall under the regulation of the National Firearms Act of 1934.
The ONLY assault rifles legally in the hands of US citizens are those that were registered with the ATF before May 19 1986, on which the $200 tax has been paid, multiple layers of background checks have been performed, and the owners have obtained written permission from the local head of law enforcement. NO new ones have been allowed since congress closed the registry in 86.
ASSAULT WEAPON
This is a term made up by the anti gunners, assisted by the media, and codified in law in 1994, thanks to politicians.
It went like this...Stockton Schoolyard shooting, semi auto AK47 used. Media screams, he used an assault rifle!!! Sanity responds with "No, he used a rifle. Assault rifles are select fire (semi & full auto)."
Media screams "He used a semi automatic assault rifle!!!"
Now, "Semiautomatic assault rifle" is quite a mouthful, and not the optimum sound byte. Although the media did persist with the term for some time, by 94 they had all settled on the name "assault weapon". And the weapons they were calling assault weapons were semi auto rifles, pistols, and shotguns, if they had a given combination of the cosmetic features that were on the "evil features" list. NOT machineguns, NOT assault rifles, SEMI AUTO firearms, many models by name, and all others if they met the criteria on the list.
This was codified into Fed law in the 1994 AWB (assault weapons ban), and several states also passed state laws at this time that were virtual carbon copies of the Fed law (without the sunset clause), or were even more restrictive.
Note that the recent New York SAFE act has seriously increased the restrictions and expanded the list of banned features over the still in effect 1994 NY AWB.
In effect, ASSAULT WEAPON means what ever they write into law saying it is.
Those are the big two, and the anti's deliberately chose the term assault weapon to confuse the issue. The semi auto AR that they say is an assault weapon looks identical to the M16 that is an assault rifle. The semi auto AK looks identical to the full auto one. Unless you can see the selector in the full auto fire position, you cannot tell from a picture which one is whch, AR, AK, and many other semi autos look just like the full auto ones.
The third thing clouding the discussion is the context of the word assault, in English. Some people say that any weapon used to assault someone is an assault weapon. And, sadly, in English, they are correct, but in the wrong context. When discussing things in law, we must be precise, AND correct. Even if the other side isn't.
Dr Big Bird PhD
New member
Thank you 44 AMP
Virtually all characteristics that are applied as to an assault rifle fall apart on details.
It need not be an intermediate caliber because other rifles in a "rifle caliber" (but not an intermediate cartridge) share all the characteristics. Or at least one did.
It need not be able to be fitted with a bayonet. The original Stg44 (MP44) did not, nor did the first AK-47s.
Some bolt action rifles were fitted with high capacity (more than 10 rounds) as far back as WWI but I suppose no one would all such a thing an assault rifle, even is they were used by real "storm troopers," who by then were unlikely to be wearing jackboots.
Any cartridge fired by a semi-automatic rifle has exactly the same destructive power as the same cartridge fired by a full-auto rifle.
Still, some trivialities have escaped precise definition. Is an M1 carbine an assault rifle? If not, what about an M2? True, it has no pistol grip in the current sense of the term but it is select fire. Is a .30 carbine cartridge an intermediate cartridge? Or does it fall beneath some defined floor? The M2 took a bayonet, if that helps, point-wise.
Then there's the Browning Automatic Rifle, which has everything but black plastic (neither did .30 carbines)--except the intermediate cartridge. Oh, and no pistol grip, either. It loses on points but because of the full power cartridge, you might call it an assaut and battery rifle.
Well, what about sub-machine guns. Might they be called sub-assault rifles? They pretty much have everything except the full-intermediate cartridge. Some even take bayonets but surprisingly few have black plastic stocks.
Finally, what about the current army version of the old, old, old M-16 (it's been used for well over 40 years)? Yes, it's select fire, sort of, only it isn't what you would call full-auto. Where does burst fire fit into this equation? We may have to rethink this whole business.
It need not be an intermediate caliber because other rifles in a "rifle caliber" (but not an intermediate cartridge) share all the characteristics. Or at least one did.
It need not be able to be fitted with a bayonet. The original Stg44 (MP44) did not, nor did the first AK-47s.
Some bolt action rifles were fitted with high capacity (more than 10 rounds) as far back as WWI but I suppose no one would all such a thing an assault rifle, even is they were used by real "storm troopers," who by then were unlikely to be wearing jackboots.
Any cartridge fired by a semi-automatic rifle has exactly the same destructive power as the same cartridge fired by a full-auto rifle.
Still, some trivialities have escaped precise definition. Is an M1 carbine an assault rifle? If not, what about an M2? True, it has no pistol grip in the current sense of the term but it is select fire. Is a .30 carbine cartridge an intermediate cartridge? Or does it fall beneath some defined floor? The M2 took a bayonet, if that helps, point-wise.
Then there's the Browning Automatic Rifle, which has everything but black plastic (neither did .30 carbines)--except the intermediate cartridge. Oh, and no pistol grip, either. It loses on points but because of the full power cartridge, you might call it an assaut and battery rifle.
Well, what about sub-machine guns. Might they be called sub-assault rifles? They pretty much have everything except the full-intermediate cartridge. Some even take bayonets but surprisingly few have black plastic stocks.
Finally, what about the current army version of the old, old, old M-16 (it's been used for well over 40 years)? Yes, it's select fire, sort of, only it isn't what you would call full-auto. Where does burst fire fit into this equation? We may have to rethink this whole business.
An assault rifle will be whatever Obama says it is. If it's like the last banned guns, it will include other things besides rifles. Just an auto sear is a machine gun according to the BATF&E, and in one instance a shoestring was enough to convict as being a machine gun. Our government isn't too bright. But they were elected, and that's who decides. Reid is going to let the Senate vote pretty soon and then we'll see what they want to take away.
The difference between conversational usage and...
legal definition is hugely important. The other side created a vague term "assault weapon", and deliberately uses it liberally, and interchangably with assault rifle to promote confusion. And on top of that, the other side isn't even sticking to their own definition of assault weapon.
We define assault rifle as select fire, detatchable magazine, intermediate cartridge. Everything else does not define an assault rifle. But in law, it can, and does define an assault weapon.
Remember that in US law, there is no defintion for assault rifle. Assault rifles are machine guns, and all of their other features are of no consideration. Having a bayonet, or not makes NO difference as to if a rifle is an assault rifle. But it might be the deciding factor as to if the rifle is, or is not an assault weapon, as the term in defined, in law. (forget about how the media is defining the term, that changes everything they think they see an advantage to using a new term, or including something new in the current usage term. And forget about using google, wiki, or some other modern "dictionary" for a proper defintion. You won't find it. What you will find is the definition "in popular use", which can, and ofen is wrong.)
Using our definition of assault rifle, no the M1 carbing is not an assault rifle (not select fire). The M2 is an assault rifle, because it is select fire, and uses a round more powerful than the standard WWII pistol rounds (although the .30 carbine round is on the low end of the range, being only slightly more powerful than the standard pistol rounds of the era)
The presence or absence of a pistol grip, bayonet lug, etc., makes no difference in defining assault rifle. The M1 carbine, with no pistol grip, but with a bayonet lug was not an assault weapon under the 94AWB (which required 2 or more features from the "ban" list. The M1 paratrooper carbine, with its folding stock, pistol grip and bayonet lug did meet the requirements, and was an assault weapon under the law. The new New York law makes the original M1 carbine an assault weapon (only one feature from the ban list is required). Plus the New York law makes the mags illegal, all by themselves.
The BAR is almost in a class by itself. Neither fish nor fowl, but not good red meat, either, so to speak. It is an automatic rifle. NOT an assault rifle, because it fires a full power cartridge (.30-06). again, black plastic and pistol grips have nothing to do with it. They only count when you are talking about assault weapons (which are semi auto only), and the BAR misses on that count as well. GI BARs are either select fire (some models) or full auto only (most models).
Some people use the term "battle rifle" for arms that are select fire, but fire full power rounds. The M14, the G3, and the FAL are examples of this.
Other people use "battle rifle" to include ALL military rifles firing full power rounds, bolt action, semi auto, and select fire.
Sub machine guns are not "sub assault rifles". Again, by the definition of select fire AND intermediate power cartridge. Submachineguns fire standard pistol ammo, NOT an intermediate power round. Also disqualified are all those models which are not selective fire. If it is full auto only, it cannot be an assault rifle. It must be something else.
That decision has already been made, thanks to the US govt. Burst fire IS full auto fire. Therefore, legally a machinegun. Think of burst fire as full auto "lite". IT is full auto, just not continous full auto fire.
Black stocks, pistol grips, folding stocks, thumbhole stocks, bayonet lugs, flash suppressors, etc., do NOT figure in the definition of assault rifle. They do play a part in the definition of a semi auto as an assault weapon, under current laws.
The media and all the talking heads play fast and loose with the terms, purposely so, to create an specific impression, and an attitude. Look at what they put in law (or try to), THAT is what really matters.
We don't do ourselves any good confusing the terms and mixing them together, that's what the other side wants us to do.
legal definition is hugely important. The other side created a vague term "assault weapon", and deliberately uses it liberally, and interchangably with assault rifle to promote confusion. And on top of that, the other side isn't even sticking to their own definition of assault weapon.
We define assault rifle as select fire, detatchable magazine, intermediate cartridge. Everything else does not define an assault rifle. But in law, it can, and does define an assault weapon.
Remember that in US law, there is no defintion for assault rifle. Assault rifles are machine guns, and all of their other features are of no consideration. Having a bayonet, or not makes NO difference as to if a rifle is an assault rifle. But it might be the deciding factor as to if the rifle is, or is not an assault weapon, as the term in defined, in law. (forget about how the media is defining the term, that changes everything they think they see an advantage to using a new term, or including something new in the current usage term. And forget about using google, wiki, or some other modern "dictionary" for a proper defintion. You won't find it. What you will find is the definition "in popular use", which can, and ofen is wrong.)
Using our definition of assault rifle, no the M1 carbing is not an assault rifle (not select fire). The M2 is an assault rifle, because it is select fire, and uses a round more powerful than the standard WWII pistol rounds (although the .30 carbine round is on the low end of the range, being only slightly more powerful than the standard pistol rounds of the era)
The presence or absence of a pistol grip, bayonet lug, etc., makes no difference in defining assault rifle. The M1 carbine, with no pistol grip, but with a bayonet lug was not an assault weapon under the 94AWB (which required 2 or more features from the "ban" list. The M1 paratrooper carbine, with its folding stock, pistol grip and bayonet lug did meet the requirements, and was an assault weapon under the law. The new New York law makes the original M1 carbine an assault weapon (only one feature from the ban list is required). Plus the New York law makes the mags illegal, all by themselves.
The BAR is almost in a class by itself. Neither fish nor fowl, but not good red meat, either, so to speak. It is an automatic rifle. NOT an assault rifle, because it fires a full power cartridge (.30-06). again, black plastic and pistol grips have nothing to do with it. They only count when you are talking about assault weapons (which are semi auto only), and the BAR misses on that count as well. GI BARs are either select fire (some models) or full auto only (most models).
Some people use the term "battle rifle" for arms that are select fire, but fire full power rounds. The M14, the G3, and the FAL are examples of this.
Other people use "battle rifle" to include ALL military rifles firing full power rounds, bolt action, semi auto, and select fire.
Sub machine guns are not "sub assault rifles". Again, by the definition of select fire AND intermediate power cartridge. Submachineguns fire standard pistol ammo, NOT an intermediate power round. Also disqualified are all those models which are not selective fire. If it is full auto only, it cannot be an assault rifle. It must be something else.
That decision has already been made, thanks to the US govt. Burst fire IS full auto fire. Therefore, legally a machinegun. Think of burst fire as full auto "lite". IT is full auto, just not continous full auto fire.
Black stocks, pistol grips, folding stocks, thumbhole stocks, bayonet lugs, flash suppressors, etc., do NOT figure in the definition of assault rifle. They do play a part in the definition of a semi auto as an assault weapon, under current laws.
The media and all the talking heads play fast and loose with the terms, purposely so, to create an specific impression, and an attitude. Look at what they put in law (or try to), THAT is what really matters.
We don't do ourselves any good confusing the terms and mixing them together, that's what the other side wants us to do.
So an assault rifle has to be full auto but a BAR, which is full auto (or select fire), is not an assault rifle because it uses a full-power cartridge, making it merely an automatic rifle. No wonder people get confused.
Say, who was it who said what an assault rifle is? Was it the Lady of the Lake? John Browning? Josef Nickl? Or Mikhail Kalashnikov? I have no idea who designed the StuG 44.
Say, who was it who said what an assault rifle is? Was it the Lady of the Lake? John Browning? Josef Nickl? Or Mikhail Kalashnikov? I have no idea who designed the StuG 44.
SPEMack618
New member
I would say the BAR would be classified as a "battle rifle" because it is automatic and fires a full sized service round.
Like the FN-FAL, G-3, M-14, etc.
Like the FN-FAL, G-3, M-14, etc.
Originally the engineering team at Haenel when trying to get herr Hitler to accept a "new type" or rifle. He didn't like sub machine guns, or as the Germans call them "machine pistols".
They re-branded the existing product as a "StG 44" from an earlier "MP 43" (maschine pistol, model of '43) to a "Sturmgewehr 44", literally "storm" (or assault) rifle (model of 1944).
You see its always been a political boondoggle, right from initial conception.
oldgunsmith
New member
Maybe
Maybe some of them remember being involved in assault operations in the military when the majority involved had their rifles on semi-auto and only a select few were allowed to have it on full (Squad AR men). A semi-auto AR 15 is not only a perfectly capable assault weapon, semi-auto is by far the most commonly used assault mode in full auto versions and has been since it was introduced. To be offended by someone referring to it as an assault rifle is pretty lame. Whoever calls it that has a pretty good point.
Maybe some of them remember being involved in assault operations in the military when the majority involved had their rifles on semi-auto and only a select few were allowed to have it on full (Squad AR men). A semi-auto AR 15 is not only a perfectly capable assault weapon, semi-auto is by far the most commonly used assault mode in full auto versions and has been since it was introduced. To be offended by someone referring to it as an assault rifle is pretty lame. Whoever calls it that has a pretty good point.
SPEMack618
New member
But the AR-15 isn't an assualt rifle....some variants look like an M-4A1, but the AR-15 doesn't have a selector switch.
Heck, the only fella in my squad who didn't have an automatic weapon was the guy carrying full sized M-16 in the PDM role.
Heck, the only fella in my squad who didn't have an automatic weapon was the guy carrying full sized M-16 in the PDM role.
Last edited:
freedash22
New member
And More
Sturmgewehr has made a pretty good point in his video in youtube about the AWB of 2013. According to Feinstein, all weapons which are semi-auto versions of their full-auto military counterparts should now be labelled as an assault weapon.
Just like Sturmgewehr said, this can be pretty alarming because this would mean some common pistols, with full auto equivalents will now be termed assault weapons. Examples would be CZ75 (CZ75 Automatic), G17 (G18), Beretta 92 (93R), Uzi, TMP, Scorpions and others.
Sturmgewehr has made a pretty good point in his video in youtube about the AWB of 2013. According to Feinstein, all weapons which are semi-auto versions of their full-auto military counterparts should now be labelled as an assault weapon.
Just like Sturmgewehr said, this can be pretty alarming because this would mean some common pistols, with full auto equivalents will now be termed assault weapons. Examples would be CZ75 (CZ75 Automatic), G17 (G18), Beretta 92 (93R), Uzi, TMP, Scorpions and others.
Assault Weapon: A history
Compared to the early muskets with smoothbore and ball and powder, the Spencer and Henry rifles had to be assault weapons. The Colt revolver no doubt became the pinnacle of assault handhelds weapons. As we go through history we see that we constantly upgrade the firearms, and now a Spencer or a Colt revolver are seen as tame and worthy firearms.
As time went on the Browning Hi Power semi-auto and the 12 gauge pump shotgun were assault weapons. Remember, the police started to carry them?
And now, today, the police, not the military, have AR-15 (M4) full auto assault weapons and high cap semi-auto pistols. Why? Because they are the best evaluators of what it takes to defend one self properly in any situation.
With that kind of endorsement, it is also why every law abiding citizen should be able to have the same defensive measures at their disposal. We already have an assault weapon ban. All auto firearms are an extra tax, more difficult purchase. If it comes down to terminology, we only have to see what side of the debate the person is on to hear sporting rifle or assault weapon used. Oh, and we have assault clips (magazines actually, it's just those that don't understand use whatever they can)
Compared to the early muskets with smoothbore and ball and powder, the Spencer and Henry rifles had to be assault weapons. The Colt revolver no doubt became the pinnacle of assault handhelds weapons. As we go through history we see that we constantly upgrade the firearms, and now a Spencer or a Colt revolver are seen as tame and worthy firearms.
As time went on the Browning Hi Power semi-auto and the 12 gauge pump shotgun were assault weapons. Remember, the police started to carry them?
And now, today, the police, not the military, have AR-15 (M4) full auto assault weapons and high cap semi-auto pistols. Why? Because they are the best evaluators of what it takes to defend one self properly in any situation.
With that kind of endorsement, it is also why every law abiding citizen should be able to have the same defensive measures at their disposal. We already have an assault weapon ban. All auto firearms are an extra tax, more difficult purchase. If it comes down to terminology, we only have to see what side of the debate the person is on to hear sporting rifle or assault weapon used. Oh, and we have assault clips (magazines actually, it's just those that don't understand use whatever they can)
I have slightly different information about how the name came about. Sometime after late 40 (not sure the precise date) an order was issued suspending further developement of rifles, as a waste of resources. (Ibelieve that the FG 42 was exempted). The Germans were winning, and saw developement of new rifles as unneeded. Developement of the next generation of submachineguns (MP in German) was permitted.
This is why the MP43 and MP44 were so designated, to get around the restriction on rifle development. When, at a conference of officers from the Eastern Front, Hitler asked what they needed or wanted, several told him "more of the new rifles!". Hitler was unaware of any "new rifles".
Small numbers of the MP43/44s were being "field tested" on the Eastern Front.
Reportedly, Hitler was furious, at first, because the order forbidding new rifles had been flouted, but after having the gun demonstrated for him, he became enthusiastic, and proclaimed that it was now the Sturmgewehr. And so the designation was changed to Stg 44.
Hitler named the Assault Rifle.
(I cannot, of course personally verify the validity of the story, but I have seen it, with minor variations in published accounts written by people who were in positions to know.