What kind of 38 Special bullet did Jack Ruby use?

[DG45]

I was just reading another thread on this forum in which a video was shown of a store clerk dropping a robber with a 38 Special. Somebody commented that the robber "did the Lee Harvey curl" which was a reference to the way Lee Harvey Oswald went down like a sack of potatoes and curled up and died when Jack Ruby shot him in 1963. Thats what happened on this video I just saw too. It really was a lot like the Oswald shooting in 1963. The robber went down immediately just like Oswald did back then.

I know that Jack Ruby used a 38 Special snub-nosed revolver when he put Oswald down for the long count in 1963, but as far as I know, no one ever reported what type or weight bullet he used. I've always wondered if it was just a standard velocity 158 grain LRN (which was the normal everyday load for just about everybody back then). Whatever it was, it did enormous damage to Oswald according to the reports of the time. Anybody know for sure what kind of bullet was? All I remember for sure is that it was one impressive advertisment for the stopping power of an ordinary 38 Special Revolver - and this latest video is too.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...a standard velocity 158 grain LRN..." Most likely. Not much else available in 1963. The distance had a lot to do with it.
"...Anybody know for sure what kind of bullet was?..." Nope. Never published as I recall.
"...a 38 Special snub-nosed revolver..." Colt Cobra at under 2 feet. Wouldn't matter what bullet.

 

[Chesster]

Best I recall, most .38 factory ammo before the JHP were WC, or 158/200gr RNL.

 

[Webleymkv]

If I had to guess, I'd say either 158grn LRN or 148grn HBWC.

 

[Old Grump]

Dallas Police dept property receipt shows that Ruby was carrying a set of brass knuckles, a 38 caliber revolver, 5 rounds of 38 spcl ammunition and one 38 spcl case and one slug, I am presuming the one used to kill Lee Harvey Oswald. No further identification was offered.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2417.pdf

However in the bank money bag he carried there was a box of ammunition marked S&W 38 spcl and had lead bullets. Just a wild guess but they probably would have been 158 gr LRN. One round in the box had a copper jacketed bullet and was marked WW. I cannot reference this because it was something I read a while back and I can't remember the source.

The gun Ruby used was purchased by a policeman friend of his because police didn't pay tax on their weapons. If he got his ammunition through them then they could have been anything. It was a time of transition for the Dallas police force back then.

 

[zombieslayer]

Just find out what the CIA was loading back in the 60's!

 

[Chesster]

WW marketed a copperwashed 158gr RN called "Lubaloy" I believe back then. This was Oswald's round of choice.

http://www.kenrahn.com/Marsh/HSCA/TIPPITMU.TXT

 

[gglass]

Zombieslayer:
Just find out what the CIA was loading back in the 60's!

You do realize that there are black choppers hovering over your home at this moment, don't you?

Chesster:
WW marketed a copperwashed 158gr RN called "Lubaloy" I believe back then. This was Oswald's round of choice.

Just so everyone can see the .38 Specials from a day and age when people knew that the .38 could actually kill.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=142194546

 

[Dave T]

Just so everyone can see the .38 Specials from a day and age when people knew that the .38 could actually kill.

Don't confuse lethality with stopping. Most everyone knows a 38 Special will kill. So will a 22 LR. The problem with the standard 158g RNL 38 Spl round was that it only "stopped" it's intended target about 50% of the time. Some forget that that means it does stop 50% of the time. Oswald and the video you referred to are classic examples of when it worked well.

Dave

 

[zombieslayer]

I can hear a blackhawk in the distance!! hahahaha

For a surplus catalog gun, Oswalds "magic bullet" sure seemed to be in impeccable shape for having tumbled through so much flesh and bone and made multiple wounds on the 2 victims. LOL I promise I'm not trying to get this thread locked down or cause any chaos, I've been interested in the weapons and ballistics of this event for some time now. Dang it! There are men in suits at the door!!!!!!!!

 

[kmrcstintn]

my best guess(es) about the ammunition used ---



3 loads come to mind based upon the era and availability:

158gr lead round nose; 148gr lead wadcutter; 130gr full metal jacket (a standard issue load for air force scurity personnel using .38 spl revolvers)

 

[bob.a]

Speculating without a grain of evidence or hard info, wonder if these two guys went down so quickly because they were hit in the pelvis? A broken pelvis would cause an immediate collapse as the body's support structure failed.

Anyone have access to autopsy results on Oswald?

 

[FlyFish]

Anyone have access to autopsy results on Oswald?

It's generally available on the 'net, along with autopsy photos. The report indicates he was shot in the chest (though the film makes it look more abdominal), so broken pelvis is unlikely.

 

[zombieslayer]

Idk... those old autopsy photos... the man who did jfk's autopsy swore up and down that the Warren Commission's photos were NOT the original autopsy photos as performed by him. OMG>>> the choppers are buzzing overhead again!!!!!!!!

 

[Old Grump]

At 11:21 am Sunday, November 24, 1963, while he was handcuffed to Detective Leavelle and as he was about to be taken to the Dallas County Jail, Oswald was shot and fatally wounded before live television cameras in the basement of Dallas Police Headquarters by Jack Ruby, a Dallas nightclub operator who said that he had been distraught over the Kennedy assassination.

Unconscious, Oswald was put into an ambulance and rushed to Parkland Memorial Hospital, the same hospital where President Kennedy had died two days earlier. Doctors operated on Oswald, but Ruby's single bullet had severed major abdominal blood vessels, and the doctors were unable to repair the massive trauma. Oswald was pronounced dead at 1:07 pm. After a full autopsy, Oswald's body[116] was returned to his family. Oswald's grave is in Rose Hill Memorial Burial Park in Fort Worth.[117][118] The original tombstone, which included Oswald's full name and dates of birth and death, was stolen; today, the grave is marked by a stone which reads simply, Oswald.[119]

His wife Marina was sequestered by federal agents the day after the assassination and later released. However, she had Secret Service protection until she concluded her testimony before the Warren Commission.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald

Photo of Oswalds body showing entry wound
http://www.celebritymorgue.com/jfk/oswald-slab.html

 

[cornbush]

Maybe Ruby's was magic too.

 

[Stainz]

The doc who swore up and down about the 'doctored' JFK autopsy photos - and wrote a great book on it - also said that the 5-10 minute ride to the hospital oddly took 45+ minutes. Oswald bled out and could not be revived. The ER doctors agreed his gunshot was surviveable - with more prudent care. I loaned that book out one too many times.

Stainz

 

[Deaf Smith]

The ball was dropped so many times in Dallas that day it makes one wonder.

And it's funny how all the 'usual suspects' died.

Black choppers? No. Nothing fancy was needed.

Just a patsy that could be counted on to actually fire a shot or two. While others just made sure it was done right and then cleaned up the mess.

 

[doc540]

(I coined the "Oswald Curl", thank ya)

Couple of things came into play in the Oswald shoot.

1. He wasn't jacked up on adrenaline, drugs, rage, or fear. That'll motivate the even the worst of 'em.

2. He was gut shot. It's the quintessential curler.

And, yes, it was fatal, but the Cobra took a while to work its magic.

 

[Old Grump]

Mostly he was shot at point blank range, right where you expect a HD shooting to take place. From what I read elsewhere it entered just below his heart and traveled a little downward and tore up most of his internal organs. Other reports said there wasn't any appreciable organ damage but lots of blood loss and he died from an embolism. There has been so much cobbled together stories written by whack jobs that the truth is pretty much obscured. One reason I suspect that the bullet was a 158 gr LRN was that it was not a through and through shot even from that close distance.

Maybe today with advanced trauma care that could be survivable but I doubt if he would have survived it. especially since they took him to the same hospital Kennedy had been taken to and the staff was still in shock. I doubt seriously there was a doctor in Dallas that day who would have wanted to do a good job on Oswald. All I know was that I was in my first week of boot camp that week and it was pretty traumatic for all of us.