What is good shot placement???

[James K]

Hi, guys,

I am not a member of the "shoot off his hangnail" school of defense, but I wonder if "stopping" always means "killing".

I am not against killing when necessary, but the question here is stopping. Center mass or even head shots will not always stop a determined aggressor. An attacker approaching with a knife might not be stopped by shots to the chest, but a broken thigh bone or knee cap stops the attack immediately since the leg can no longer respond. A man with a pistol will be in no position to use it with a shoulder smashed to fragments by a .45 hollowpoint.

I repeat, this is not out of concern for "the sanctity of life" or even legal consequences. But if the need is to stop an attack, immediately, the traditional "center mass" or head shot may not be the best.

Jim

 

[Torpedo]

What is good shot placement??

Frankly if it were me going for a frontal head shot I think I would opt to shoot for the eye as opposed to between the eyes, due to the fact that there is no bone to interfere with the shot.(Deflection) Just a thought.

 

[olazul]

This is a really good point Dr45ACP has pointed out. Most individuals do not know anatomy. Most of the "anatomy" taught at the popular firearms schools is not correct.

Take the head shot for instance.
interestingly enough- the shot between the eyes might not enter the brain. It is a face shot, not a head shot. In fact a shot below the level of the pupils must be considered a face/neck shot until proven otherwise since a good portion of these bullets bounce off the sella turcica or the petrous portion of bone- both very thick and angled causing deflection into the neck.

No- if you want a head shot one must be above/at the level of the pupils if directly in the eye and a little higher if in the middle of the eyes. Of course you don't want to hit where the frontal bone connects to the brainpan since this might deflect, so the best HEAD shot is probably just above the level of the eyebrows, if looking straight on.

The bottom line: There is no such thing as a sure "stopper" so keep shootin' till they stop.

regards,

olazul

 

[David Blinder]

I'll have to respectfully disagree with Jim Keenan as the shots he mentions ("broken thigh bone or knee cap stops the attack immediately since the leg can no longer respond. A man with a pistol will be in no position to use it with a shoulder smashed to fragments by a .45 hollowpoint.") do not stop the threat. They do give the BG something to think about but a motivated attacker would still be capable of hurting you. That's why I think the pelvis shot that some trainers advocate is not a prime choice. You have to execute it perfectly and even then, it doesn't end the threat. I say shoot the best threat ending part of the body you can see and keep shooting it until something better appears.

 

[gyp_c2]

Not only does a shot to the centerline make sense for destruction of organs, it is also possible to sever or at least displace the spinal cord, this is a TRUE central nervous system hit and can completely immobilize the target. I believe that satisfies the criteria mentioned and even if "it" bleeds to death slowly or not, Immobilization = out of the action...

 

[Dr45ACP]

Spinal cord is only about half an inch in diameter.... That would be a hard hit to reliably score.

 

[gyp_c2]

Yes, but the rather large central part of your skeleton called the spine is about the size of your fist and connected to all the muscles and connective tissues from your head to your hips...and the SPINAL CORD runs through the center of it. All it takes is a little shrapnel, much less a direct hit on any one of the vertebrae...

 

[Al Thompson]

A few weeks ago we had a trooper shoot a bad guy between the eyes. Bag guy lived and will stand trial.

A good shot is one that allows you to survive the situation. Lethality is secondary.

One of my shooting buddies is an ER nurse with 20 years of experiance. In his opinion, .22 to 9mm hardball, it's a toss up based on wound observation. Good .38/9mm HPs through .45 (non-Magnum) seem to work about the same. High end .357/10mm/.44 work the best - his choice is 10mm.

Food for thought.

Giz

 

[Hardin]

thoughtful posts,all, except for the childish faith in .45

Faith is defined as "belief without REASON". I have no faith at all. I have REASON to believe that the hydraulic forces of something like a 223 SP, in an enclosed container like the brain,, will QUITE reliably "splash" all of the liquid filled contents of that container. That is not as likely to be true for a low velocity pistol rd, especially of the nonexpanding type. The desire to cause enough physical damage to MAKE an attacker stop is of course quite understandable, but it is also quite unlikely to be feasible, especially with the 38 and less powerful pcs, which are far more likely to actually be WITH you than a long arm or .44's are! There is also the fact that a pocket pc can be brought into play (from concealment, hand in pocket) as much as one entire second before a belt pc can be "cleared" from a bellyband, etc. That one second can allow 4 GOOD tries at the head (at, say, 6 ft or less) You can pierce the pelvis without causing any effect at all, especially with a low velocity, non expanding rd. A spinal hit is the purest of LUCK hits, at least from the front it is so. The bullets "wander" a bit as they penetrate, ya know, so even if you COULD accurately tell where the spine is, hit a 1" wide target while under lethal stress, etc, it would still be a luck hit. Why leave out shock from the discussion? If I smash your testicles, the odds are QUITE high that you will cease doing anything! Yet it's not fatal, if surgeons remove them and thus prevent gangrene! Lots more people can be made to WANT to stop than can be physically smashed to the pt where they CANT continue, especially with mere handguns. That said, a .45 Super CAN reach 223 SP levels of shock and destruction, so why bother to carry a belt pc with less? A 00 blast has exactly the same potential for damage as 9 rds of 38 LRN,, the 00 blast is better because of shock. The 2 guys firing the 38's need 1 sec or more to deliver them, and that much time in between the hits lessens the shock effect, by quite a bit, If they both fired 4 rd bursts of 9mm ball, at 20 per sec from MAC 11, then they would be coming closer to the effect of the 00 blast

 

[gyp_c2]

I agree Hardin. I just think that a persons best chance at success lies with the odds. Whatever you have to use at the time you need it placed into an area that has the most chance of producing the desired effect.
...All the posts here have good points. I'm certainly willing to use whatever the best tool available happens to be. If you have a head shot and by-god you take it, you still wouldn't wait around to see if it's effective before you follow it up. If the target presents in an ideal profile, hell yes, take the ideal shot. I work at a variety of distances and angles to optimize my tools effectiveness. If I can change ANYTHING to achieve my goals, I will.
This is a good thread...more, more,