Basement-Gunsmith-Z
New member
I was being facetious. It was a joke.
What do you think?
- Thread starter Stuohn
- Start date
I was being facetious. It was a joke.
Ive noticed a couple of things getting lost in this thread.
Im not looking for so much a HD long gun (Im buying a pistol for that). I realize it may not be the best and it might change in the future but, it is going to be the first thing I grab if needed (besides a phone of course).
In case anyone was wondering when I said 'bad times" I was talking more hurricane, power outages, etc..I wasnt thinking zombies or any other such nonsense.
I also noticed that I stated it pretty confusing but, my over all budget is $2500. I just automatically took $500 out for ammo, and $700 for an XDM 45 compact (now that I think about it I might need $750 for night sights).
So what ever else I buy will mainly be for paper out to 100yds( learning how to hit what I want when I want being the objective) with anything left over going to more ammo.
I hope that clears somethings up.
Im not looking for so much a HD long gun (Im buying a pistol for that). I realize it may not be the best and it might change in the future but, it is going to be the first thing I grab if needed (besides a phone of course).
In case anyone was wondering when I said 'bad times" I was talking more hurricane, power outages, etc..I wasnt thinking zombies or any other such nonsense.
I also noticed that I stated it pretty confusing but, my over all budget is $2500. I just automatically took $500 out for ammo, and $700 for an XDM 45 compact (now that I think about it I might need $750 for night sights).
So what ever else I buy will mainly be for paper out to 100yds( learning how to hit what I want when I want being the objective) with anything left over going to more ammo.
I hope that clears somethings up.
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603Country
New member
After following this heated debate, I'm with Hooligan. I'm not a fan of using an AR15 for deer hunting (even though some of ya'll do it), and that AK round is pretty much equal to a 123 grain 30/30 round. It'll do, but it won't do well for deer hunting. Just get a nice bolt action, and you have plenty to choose from, and get it in a good caliber (243 minimum). Then put good glass on it. If I was spending your money, I'd spend about $800 on the rifle and about the same on the scope. You can do it for less, say a Ruger American and a good Burris scope, and you're only in for $600 or a bit more.
Back when I did a lot of host hunting (corporate america had big leases) and took folks hunting, I could tell a lot about their hunting skills by looking at the rifles. When folks showed up with AR15's and AK's, I pushed them toward other jeeps and guides ("nope, my jeep is full up, so you go ride with Bob"). I was looking for the guys with old 25-06's with blueing gone and dents in the stocks and good glass. And, of course, pretty girls could ride in my jeep even if they didn't have a rifle. Life's too short to hunt with amateurs.
Back when I did a lot of host hunting (corporate america had big leases) and took folks hunting, I could tell a lot about their hunting skills by looking at the rifles. When folks showed up with AR15's and AK's, I pushed them toward other jeeps and guides ("nope, my jeep is full up, so you go ride with Bob"). I was looking for the guys with old 25-06's with blueing gone and dents in the stocks and good glass. And, of course, pretty girls could ride in my jeep even if they didn't have a rifle. Life's too short to hunt with amateurs.
jason41987
New member
AR-15/AR-10 rifles are fine to shoot and reliable... so long as its a nice sunny day... but as you mention hurricanes and other natural disasters, you may find yourself in dirty flooded waters, crawling around debris and have to fire in conditions that are not dry and sunny.. in which case an AR rifle is most likely going to fail you
Bamashooter
New member
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ seriously?
marine6680
New member
Is the XDM 45 sub compact really $700?! Any particular reason for 45? The 9mm version is about $100 less I seen. (or did you mean "compact" which is really what I call duty sized... smaller than say a 1911 or M9 but bigger than the sub-compacts designed for CCW... those I know are about $550-600 if you shop around)
45acp is a good round, don't get me wrong... I like it, I've owned firearms that shoot it, as well as 9mm an 40s&w... but modern hollowpoints like Federal's HST and Speer's Gold Dot, especially when in the 124gn +p loading, level the field as far as effectiveness... Statistics don't lie, there is very little difference between the 3 major handgun calibers when it comes to effectiveness. Then there is the capacity and recoil aspect of it, which in a subcompact really makes a difference. (that being said, my person caliber of choice is 40, my fiance uses 9mm)
As far as a rifle... I have a couple suggestions.
First, I suggest a good 22lr semiauto as a good idea. Cheap and fun to shoot, for when you just want to punch paper. You can even hunt small game with it if you are so inclined.
The Ruger 10/22 is pretty much the go to as far as semiauto 22s are concerned. You can get one for $200 just about anywhere for the basic model in wood or polymer stock. A cheap low power scope or red dot and you can have a blast. You can deck it out and make it "tactical" if you want. Mostly just for the fun factor, but it still is viable as a small game hunter when set up like that. it also has factory high cap mags available to make time at the range more about fun than constant reloading. Sometimes the gun or the individual mag may need a little break in, but reliability is pretty much top notch.
If all you want is a fun plinker with a tactical feel, the M&P 15-22 is a good choice... and so is the Sig 522. With the edge going to the Sig as far as reliability with many ammo types and build quality. (aluminum upper on the sig, polymer on the M&P, Sig uses common 22 ar mags the M&P uses special mags, also I feel the bolt design on the Sig is better) You could hunt small game with them if you wanted, despite their "tactical" design. They both cost around $450 though, so more than the basic Ruger without addons.
Next... do you want bolt or semiauto for your centerfire rifle? Thats the question.
Bolt action makes an excellent hunter, and they are fun at the range, if you have a range that has enough distance to make it challenging, and you like slow precision shooting.
It is not a good choice in a defense situation. You mentioned hurricanes.. I am assuming you mean similar situations to Katrina or similar times of widespread lawlessness. A pistol is fine when there is only one or two intruders, but if you have a large group, a shotgun that holds more than 3 rounds, or repeating rifle works better. Though a gun is a gun, and a bolt action can be just as intimidating as any other, its when you are called to actually use it that it is less effective than other options.
If you go with a bolt action, a "scout" type will serve you well unless you need real long distance accuracy. Inside a few hundred yards, I would guess it would be just fine. If not a scout type, then a find one you like and fits your budget. You don't "need" a $1000+ bolt gun, a $400-600 version from a quality manufacturer like Winchester, Remington, CZ, Ruger, etc etc will get the job done well.
If slow fire/precision shooting is not your cup of tea, and the 22 semiauto does not fully fill your need for faster fire or general plinking... then you need to get a semiauto centerfire.
You can go with an M1A in .308 if you want... it has plenty of punch for most hunting in the lower 48 when matched with the right bullet... but the cost of the rifle and/or ammo may put you off.
The AR in .308 is a good option, but also expensive.
Then there is the AR-15... the .223/5.56 round is not overly expensive... and you can get a very reliable rifle for $800-1000... The big benefit of the AR platform is the fact that you can swap uppers very easily... While getting a new upper may not be in the budget now, it can be looked at as a future purchase. I hear the 6.8 round is a good round for dear hunting. Its basically a .270 short... They even make 22lr conversion kits (a bolt swap which is about $150-200, or a complete upper kit that costs a good bit more) So if you went that route, you could skip the 22 semiauto. You could have a rifle that you can afford to shoot all day, then swap out for centerfire practice, and if you get a second upper with a target/hunting barrel, convert it over to a decent hunter. Though a good target/hunting upper is going to cost you about the same as a good bolt gun by itself... its the price of modularity.
If you want the ultimate in modularity... the new Colt 901 is a .308 AR-10 that can also convert to using AR-15 uppers, so any upper that fits an AR-15 will work for the 901... but be prepared to spend near $2000 for the rifle before any new uppers.
So its up to you... you have a wide range of potential uses, but I didn't see any concrete talk of your shooting style and idea of a fun day at the range. So I tried to cover many bases with my reply.
As far as the .223 for hunting goes...
You can hunt deer and similar sized game with .223 but it isn't the best. It is pretty much the standard round for varmint hunting though.
The 7.62x39 is not as powerful as some, but its powerful enough for game up to deer size I would think. (its compared to the 30-30 which was a popular deer cartridge) Its effective on humans, and deer share similar sized/shaped chest cavities.
They make bolt action rifles in 7.62x39, that would be pretty accurate, so long as they use the proper bore size. 7.62x39 uses a .311 bore, the 7.62 Nato (.308) is .308 bore... surplus 7.62x39 is standard .311 bore, some domestic hunting/defense geared 7.62x39 use standard .308 bullets... So know your ammo and gun as well for max accuracy. From what I hear, done right, the 7.62x39 can be accurate out of a bolt gun, Hickok45 was using a CZ bolt carbine and hitting a steel gong at 230yds with iron sites in one of his videos. And I would think you could take deer at 150-200yds without much trouble with good ammo. Beyond that, its ballistics make it harder to shoot, bullet drop is fast as I understand. Which makes knowing your optic and hold over for each range is important.
BTW... I am not a hunter myself, so take what I say on that subject with a grain of salt... I do know and talk to several hunters, and read a bit about it in the forums, so I can pass along things as I understand them. And I may be understanding wrong.
45acp is a good round, don't get me wrong... I like it, I've owned firearms that shoot it, as well as 9mm an 40s&w... but modern hollowpoints like Federal's HST and Speer's Gold Dot, especially when in the 124gn +p loading, level the field as far as effectiveness... Statistics don't lie, there is very little difference between the 3 major handgun calibers when it comes to effectiveness. Then there is the capacity and recoil aspect of it, which in a subcompact really makes a difference. (that being said, my person caliber of choice is 40, my fiance uses 9mm)
As far as a rifle... I have a couple suggestions.
First, I suggest a good 22lr semiauto as a good idea. Cheap and fun to shoot, for when you just want to punch paper. You can even hunt small game with it if you are so inclined.
The Ruger 10/22 is pretty much the go to as far as semiauto 22s are concerned. You can get one for $200 just about anywhere for the basic model in wood or polymer stock. A cheap low power scope or red dot and you can have a blast. You can deck it out and make it "tactical" if you want. Mostly just for the fun factor, but it still is viable as a small game hunter when set up like that. it also has factory high cap mags available to make time at the range more about fun than constant reloading. Sometimes the gun or the individual mag may need a little break in, but reliability is pretty much top notch.
If all you want is a fun plinker with a tactical feel, the M&P 15-22 is a good choice... and so is the Sig 522. With the edge going to the Sig as far as reliability with many ammo types and build quality. (aluminum upper on the sig, polymer on the M&P, Sig uses common 22 ar mags the M&P uses special mags, also I feel the bolt design on the Sig is better) You could hunt small game with them if you wanted, despite their "tactical" design. They both cost around $450 though, so more than the basic Ruger without addons.
Next... do you want bolt or semiauto for your centerfire rifle? Thats the question.
Bolt action makes an excellent hunter, and they are fun at the range, if you have a range that has enough distance to make it challenging, and you like slow precision shooting.
It is not a good choice in a defense situation. You mentioned hurricanes.. I am assuming you mean similar situations to Katrina or similar times of widespread lawlessness. A pistol is fine when there is only one or two intruders, but if you have a large group, a shotgun that holds more than 3 rounds, or repeating rifle works better. Though a gun is a gun, and a bolt action can be just as intimidating as any other, its when you are called to actually use it that it is less effective than other options.
If you go with a bolt action, a "scout" type will serve you well unless you need real long distance accuracy. Inside a few hundred yards, I would guess it would be just fine. If not a scout type, then a find one you like and fits your budget. You don't "need" a $1000+ bolt gun, a $400-600 version from a quality manufacturer like Winchester, Remington, CZ, Ruger, etc etc will get the job done well.
If slow fire/precision shooting is not your cup of tea, and the 22 semiauto does not fully fill your need for faster fire or general plinking... then you need to get a semiauto centerfire.
You can go with an M1A in .308 if you want... it has plenty of punch for most hunting in the lower 48 when matched with the right bullet... but the cost of the rifle and/or ammo may put you off.
The AR in .308 is a good option, but also expensive.
Then there is the AR-15... the .223/5.56 round is not overly expensive... and you can get a very reliable rifle for $800-1000... The big benefit of the AR platform is the fact that you can swap uppers very easily... While getting a new upper may not be in the budget now, it can be looked at as a future purchase. I hear the 6.8 round is a good round for dear hunting. Its basically a .270 short... They even make 22lr conversion kits (a bolt swap which is about $150-200, or a complete upper kit that costs a good bit more) So if you went that route, you could skip the 22 semiauto. You could have a rifle that you can afford to shoot all day, then swap out for centerfire practice, and if you get a second upper with a target/hunting barrel, convert it over to a decent hunter. Though a good target/hunting upper is going to cost you about the same as a good bolt gun by itself... its the price of modularity.
If you want the ultimate in modularity... the new Colt 901 is a .308 AR-10 that can also convert to using AR-15 uppers, so any upper that fits an AR-15 will work for the 901... but be prepared to spend near $2000 for the rifle before any new uppers. So its up to you... you have a wide range of potential uses, but I didn't see any concrete talk of your shooting style and idea of a fun day at the range. So I tried to cover many bases with my reply.
As far as the .223 for hunting goes...
You can hunt deer and similar sized game with .223 but it isn't the best. It is pretty much the standard round for varmint hunting though.
The 7.62x39 is not as powerful as some, but its powerful enough for game up to deer size I would think. (its compared to the 30-30 which was a popular deer cartridge) Its effective on humans, and deer share similar sized/shaped chest cavities.
They make bolt action rifles in 7.62x39, that would be pretty accurate, so long as they use the proper bore size. 7.62x39 uses a .311 bore, the 7.62 Nato (.308) is .308 bore... surplus 7.62x39 is standard .311 bore, some domestic hunting/defense geared 7.62x39 use standard .308 bullets... So know your ammo and gun as well for max accuracy. From what I hear, done right, the 7.62x39 can be accurate out of a bolt gun, Hickok45 was using a CZ bolt carbine and hitting a steel gong at 230yds with iron sites in one of his videos. And I would think you could take deer at 150-200yds without much trouble with good ammo. Beyond that, its ballistics make it harder to shoot, bullet drop is fast as I understand. Which makes knowing your optic and hold over for each range is important.
BTW... I am not a hunter myself, so take what I say on that subject with a grain of salt... I do know and talk to several hunters, and read a bit about it in the forums, so I can pass along things as I understand them. And I may be understanding wrong.
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The XDM 3.8 compact (bitone) cost $618 w/shipping on gun broker and $25 transfer but, I rounded it up to $700 so I could throw in and extra mag and X-tention and then night sights are @ $100 so totaled it will probably be @ 750-775 ish. I know its alot but, what the hell. It has everything I want a handgun to have with nothing I dont.
Ive owned plenty of 9mm, and 40s and 45s and I just like 45s best. Im not knocking the others its just my preference.
I realize the XDM is not tiny but, Ive owned a G30 before and I know its @ the same size. I never thought that it was too big to carry.
Can anyone explain whats wrong with the Nikon scope thats included with the savage rifle?
So far I think Im wanting a M&P15 sport and the Savage in 308. Are there any realistic things those two rifles cant do?
Ive owned plenty of 9mm, and 40s and 45s and I just like 45s best. Im not knocking the others its just my preference.
I realize the XDM is not tiny but, Ive owned a G30 before and I know its @ the same size. I never thought that it was too big to carry.
Can anyone explain whats wrong with the Nikon scope thats included with the savage rifle?
So far I think Im wanting a M&P15 sport and the Savage in 308. Are there any realistic things those two rifles cant do?
marine6680
New member
The M&P sport is a good entry level AR... not as tough as say a BCM, but great for the range, and some light bashing around. Serious competition, probably not, a carbine course... no.
It should take a 22 conversion just like any other AR, so that is a good thing.
You don't need a fancy gun or optics to hunt reliably out to a couple hundred yards. So don't worry too much about the scope... so long as it holds its zero during firing, won't break if you breath on it wrong, and can handle a little rain and fog, you should be good.
BTW... Ruger and Savage make good rifles for the money. Less than $400 will get you a lot of gun for the money.
It should take a 22 conversion just like any other AR, so that is a good thing.
You don't need a fancy gun or optics to hunt reliably out to a couple hundred yards. So don't worry too much about the scope... so long as it holds its zero during firing, won't break if you breath on it wrong, and can handle a little rain and fog, you should be good.
BTW... Ruger and Savage make good rifles for the money. Less than $400 will get you a lot of gun for the money.
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Aside from it being a pain to lug both around at the same time, no, there's not many reasonable ballistic problems one of those two could not be used to solve, given proper fodder....
As to your choice of .45ACP- if you like it, shoot it! It's my favorite pistol caliber, as well, but it has gotten expensive, even to handload. I Carry a 9mm now, for economic reasons- I have 5 kids and a gun collection to feed- every penny counts.
How much is the M&P Sport?
I put together a kit from Palmetto State Armory for less than $700 ..... Upper reciever had the barrel already installed, so the rest of it was really simple stuff.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/rifle-kits.html
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/receivers.html
Items are often out of stock, but don't stay that way very long....
I put together a kit from Palmetto State Armory for less than $700 ..... Upper reciever had the barrel already installed, so the rest of it was really simple stuff.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/rifle-kits.html
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/firearms/receivers.html
Items are often out of stock, but don't stay that way very long....
marine6680
New member
Yeah... I would say a basic PSA rifle is a good choice, better than the M&P sport. I have seen the PSA basic carbine selling recently for $700 as a complete rifle, no build needed.
In fact... I am looking real hard at using their parts to build 2 ARs how I want them set up.
In fact... I am looking real hard at using their parts to build 2 ARs how I want them set up.
I had been saving for a Colt LE6920..... had $700 of the $1200 or so needed, and figured out that I could put together a PSA kit that had everything but the grenade launcher cuts in the barrel and the prancing pony on the side ..... oh, and I got a heavier contour barrel, as well. No, it's not a Colt, but the PSA I have is better than a Colt I don't have.
Ya, I couldnt imagine a need to carry both around at the same time. I just think the AR fills the gap between the Handgun and the Bolt Gun well.
I feel you on the cost of ammo part but, Ive been stocking up here and there with the 100rd value packs of Federal Champion ($31.35 OTD) at Walmart. I just remember the first time I ever made the bulls eye disappear at 7yds was a 45acp and havent looked back since.
I can't believe I forgot about PSA. Thanks for the reminder.
I feel you on the cost of ammo part but, Ive been stocking up here and there with the 100rd value packs of Federal Champion ($31.35 OTD) at Walmart. I just remember the first time I ever made the bulls eye disappear at 7yds was a 45acp and havent looked back since.
I can't believe I forgot about PSA. Thanks for the reminder.
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Stuohn-
.45 ACP is a really simple cartridge to handload, and being a low pressure round, the cases last a long time..... ordered in bulk, you can get jacketed bullets for 16-18 cents ea .....
https://www.montanagoldbullet.com/pricelist_order.php
use the brass you already bought ....... 3 cents worth of powder, 4 cents for a primer ....... 25 cents a round...... won't save you any money: you'll just shoot 120 rounds instead of 100.
When I started, I could get 230 gr plated bullets for less than 10 cents ea...... 1000 primers were like 14 bucks....
.45 ACP is a really simple cartridge to handload, and being a low pressure round, the cases last a long time..... ordered in bulk, you can get jacketed bullets for 16-18 cents ea .....
https://www.montanagoldbullet.com/pricelist_order.php
use the brass you already bought ....... 3 cents worth of powder, 4 cents for a primer ....... 25 cents a round...... won't save you any money: you'll just shoot 120 rounds instead of 100.
When I started, I could get 230 gr plated bullets for less than 10 cents ea...... 1000 primers were like 14 bucks....
Well in case anyone was wondering I finally made it to the gun show today and came home with these ( be nice).
Ruger Mini 30 tactical and a all black XDM 45 Compact 3.8 with night sights.
In my defense, I must have handled every AR/M4 rifle at the show and couldnt warm up to one but, really liked the feel of the mini.
Ruger Mini 30 tactical and a all black XDM 45 Compact 3.8 with night sights.
In my defense, I must have handled every AR/M4 rifle at the show and couldnt warm up to one but, really liked the feel of the mini.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I've never found anything wrong with a Mini, insofar as my uses. It wasn't much for tight groups from the bench, but that's of no interest to me as a hunter. First shot on target was always very reliable.
Groups size is irrelevant for self-defense, should that ever become necessary. Minute of cranium is plenty good.
Groups size is irrelevant for self-defense, should that ever become necessary. Minute of cranium is plenty good.
Justice06RR
New member
Congrats. I think you did pretty well with those 2. Too bad you didn't like the AR's, but that may not be the right rifle for you.
Do you have any funds left? I highly suggest picking up a shotgun too to even out the collection. Post pics of the guns you bought btw.