What do you feel like when your shooting skills decline?

[Terry A]

I really hesitated to ask this but it's bothering me so much that I need to hear what can be expected.

I'm 53, been shooting since I was 6, was a full time police officer from 1981 until I retired as a Sgt on disability Feb 2011. I was on our Drug Task Force Entry Team, SWAT team and have attended too many survival / shooting classes to remember. I'm constanly shooting or practicing and honing techniques.

I've also been diagnosed with early onset dementia. This is where this post is going to get kinda strange, unless it's happened to you. Please bear with me.

What follows next is NOT to boast or sound proud, it's to show how I'm declining. I'm by no means a world class shooter. However, I have ALWAYS been in the top 10% of the best shots of all the officers that have trained with me in advanced shooting classes. I was never interested in or trained in sniping. My skill set is with combat pistol shooting. I was also blessed with God given speed and accuracy

Here's why I'm asking for some advice. The last several times I went shooting I noticed that my groups were spreading out beyond what is normal for me. My fundamentals are super ingrained, I love shooting, was using the same type pistols and ammo, same distances, etc, etc.

The cognitive aspects of my mind are most affected, according to the docs. Tonight, believe it or not, I loaded a round into my Glock 23, took the mag out and top loaded it, went over to the shooting area, firing one shot and the pistol was empty. I'd left the loaded magazine back at the bench.

I have a Stag 2T w/ an Eotec holographic. Tonight, when I pulled it out of the case, the batteries were dead. I must have put this weapon away without remembering to manually shut down the Eotec. Even though it powers off automatically, it was just plain dead today, which means that the batteries were left on rather than just drained down after normal usage because there was no flashing.

I have a Beretta 92FS that I've had since 1985. I've literally shot thousands and thousands of rounds thru it over the years. I can take it apart and put it back together without even thinking. Tonight however, after cleaning it, I loaded one round in the chamber and while it was cocked back on single action, I had no clue at the time whether it would fire if I depressed the de-cocker! I was absolutely clueless. I knew I had to take it outside, aim it at the ground and then depress the de-cocker. Then I remembered that's how you do it. I'd done it probably several thousand times over the years.

I am super, super close to my children. Always have been. We either visit or talk on the phone every day. My son lives 7 miles from me. Not long ago, I went over to visit and went to the wrong house. I often forget people that I've know for years or at the least, can't remember their names.

I could go on, but you get my gist.

I realize that as this progresses, I have to get rid of all of my weapons except one that my wife will carry and and one on her side of the bed for home defense. My son loves guns so he'll get the other 20. My daughter's husband has one and that's all she cares for in their house. Neither of them are big on guns.

I thought my shooting skills would really last longer than this, since I have so many hours of proper training and shoot so many rounds so often. But I'm not nearly as tight with my groups any more. And it's not eyesight. They're the same as always. Coupled with some of the other type of forgetfulness regarding my weapons, I have some real concerns now, way ahead of schedule.

Is it time to start shutting it down now? I don't ever want to be a hazzard or threat to anyone else. It's only a matter of time before this progresses further. The docs "guessed" that with the concoction of meds I'm on, I might have another 7-10 years before I'm totally out of it. But to be responsible, as much as guns are such a big part of my life and history, I'm concerned that they may have to go a lot sooner.

ANY similar experiences with friends or loved ones? Thoughts from you fellas are always appreciated. Any suggestions on how to prolong my shooting? It's such a big and fun part of my life.

Sorry this was so long but it can't be said correctly quickly. Other people have so many worse things to face than I do. I've been so blessed in my life!
If I have to give up gunning, I will. Just looking for any insights or ideas to prolong shooting and carrying.

Many thanks!

 

[Bud Helms]

'Not time to start shutting it down, IMHO.

When I started losing speed and eyesight started to falter, I just shifted my focus to new interest areas ... shooting interests. Even with my farsightedness and astigmatism, I shoot mainly Buffalo Stakes and bench rest these days. Good enough to be competitive at my local level, but not nearly as good as years past.

The tactical pistol is over for me. A more sedate pace doesn't mean you have to quit shooting. I can still bring a surprise to the match, but I don't consistently lead my class any more.

Age has demanded modern, updated optics for me. That made me realize how much better I could have been shooting in the early years. I love open sights and there are some out there that really help failing eyesight.

As far as dementia, props to you for considering the safety aspects.

I have decided that a couple of my regular riding (motorcycle) partners and shooting partners will be my bellwether consensus for when it's time to back off the stuff I love that can dangerous to others and myself.

Funny how it works ... The nature of decreased mental faculties is that you don't usually realize your own diminished capacity. Sort of like asking a drunk if he's sober enough to drive. Of course I can drive! *burp*

You may have caught the early indications for yourself. I'd just keep an eye on it and maybe get a real close friend or two to help. At some point your powers of internal observation will fail. I expect that in my case. I'm 65. I'm way older than the guys I ride with but the guys I shoot with are old enough for me to call Dad.

 

[Creeper]

Is it time to start shutting it down now? I don't ever want to be a hazzard or threat to anyone else.

Hi Terry,

I'm very sorry to hear about your situation... and happy to hear that you can look past your pride to see the dangers associated with future gun handling. Of course, only you, your doctors and family members can decide on how you should proceed as your illness progresses.
I will not presume to tell you how to proceed... only to offer possible options, and a view from another perspective.

Having said that, if you want to keep shooting, for as along as shooting is a pleasant proposition for you, then your "responsibilities" associated with firearms ownership may need to be reduced, or, curtailed entirely.

What I'm saying is, consider limiting yourself to shooting only... in a highly supervised environment. What level of supervision, relative to your illness, should be placed in the hands of others, be it a family member or trusted friend.
At some point, you may want to make a video of yourself, explaining to yourself, what you've done and why you've done it.

Our memories of a good day shooting is arguably, the best thing about shooting. No matter how enjoyable it may be in the present, "in the moment" and in anticipation of future sessions, at some point only the deepest memories may remain... and those memories will be what are left to sustain you.

I have cancer, and not fired a gun in over a year. My diagnosis for the future is, as yet, undetermined. I sold most of my collection to cover expenses and it's doubtful I'll see much shooting in my years remaining. For now, I live vicariously through the exploits of others, and of my own, fond memories. Participation in enthusiast forums has been a blessing for me as it allows me to "keep a hand in" on a near daily basis... it ain't shootin', but it ain't whinnin' about it either.

To consider all this in a matter of fact way, I'd say that you still have a very good head on your shoulders Terry... make sure that your remaining years are as joyful as you can make them, for you and those you care about... without placing yourself or those loved ones in danger.

Best wishes,
C

 

[g.willikers]

Welcome to old age.
And, no, you don't have to give it up.
You're probably on the downside of the hill, not the bottom.
Just don't try to go faster, or do more, than your new normal brain allows.
No biggie.
You have lots of company.
One of the older guys I know has switched mostly to precision air guns.
He's still greatly enjoying himself and isn't concerned as much with making a dangerous mistake.
Just a thought.

 

[rgrundy]

As I was reading your post I noticed that your spelling and grammar are still fine so I wouldn't be too worried. My doctors told me at age 45 that I'd be in a wheelchair by 50 (I had a degenerative condition they couldn't put their finger on, it left me with some palsy at times and joint damage). They were wrong. I looked one of them straight in the eye and said "You guys are just guessing, aren't you?" He broke eye contact immediately and I never went back. That was nearly 20 years ago. I went back to work eventually and do pretty well most days. One thing you need to realize is that being forgetful as you age is normal. We call it CRS and just laugh. I still shoot well enough sometimes to beat everyone on a USPSA stage which really makes people wonder. My performances are spotty but I have fun. Don't quit doing anything because from what I found out that's when you'll really start to slide. Keep challenging yourself as much as possible. I prayed to God to please let me at least be able to support myself and He did so much more. Stay the course my friend. Don't fear the future God is already there.

 

[B.N.Real]

Terry,so far you've lived a great life and there is no reason to think it can't keep being a great life.

As others have said,age makes your body work slower and makes your skills harder to come forward for you to use.

As far as your temporary inability to remember some things-you are going to have to stop judging yourself as inferior everytime this happens.

Forgetting things happens to all of us.

I've found that drinking alot of coffee over several decades did'nt help my mental recall so I drastically cut back on my coffee intake.

Going decaf did'nt help either-there is more then caffeine in coffee that effects the brain.

But my mental fatigue and my mental recall got measurable better when I got as far away from coffee as I could.

And I have seen with heartbreaking effect what happens to a persons brain when they drink alot of aspartame-nutrasweet-phenalynaline sweetened drinks too.

That stuff effect the way the brain uses sugar to work in a very bad way.

But the number one thing that is a killer in dementia or any mind degenerative disease is the self induced super high stress,the idea that -you have to watch yourself at every moment-that you are going to screw up someway in everything.

I am here to tell you -you can form strategies now to fight that.

Your life is going to change.

You won't be able to do things in exactly the same way you did before.

But you can still get to do them.

I've cut my guns down to two-a Smith Model 10 and a Taurus snubby that I can keep easy track of and that are very easy to know they are loaded which they are at all times.

Writing down stuff is a great way to supplement your memory.

Defending your train of thought so you won't forget it will become second nature to you.

I get this kind of mental assault all the time.

I'm thinking of something-running a problem through my mind and my wife just blurts out something I was'nt listening too anyway.

I don't get angry.

I stop my train of thought-ask her to repeat the question and deal with it and return to my train of thought.

I have realistic expectations of what I will remember and just how much I can remember too.

I have some lists of friends I made years ago but frankly,I havent kept up with them.

But here's the deal,give yourself a break.

Don't look at the next thing as -uh-oh-there it is again.

I've forgot my keys,I've left car doors open,I've left bags of ice in cars-man you name it-I've forgot it.

I've even been driving home and had some momentary thoughts of -where the hell am I-even though I drive the same route every darn day.

I work alot of hours-I get little sleep and I am getting older.

But my memory has been bad for alot of years.

I just give myself a pat on the back and say-your doing o.k. for you and keep on going.

You'll be o.k. too as long as you form some strategies to deal with the things you are having trouble remembering and most importantly-remember,you are only human,cut yourself a break.

p.s.-when I was twenty five I had a six inch heavy barrel Dan Wesson Model 15 revolver that I could shoot the bullseye out of a target single action at twenty five yards with open sights-today-I'd need a telescopic site to do the same-but at least my fifteen yard groups are seeable for me and acceptable to me.

I'll bet you have another twenty years before your groups get that bad.

 

[g.willikers]

Yeah, and Mr. Real is only 27.

 

[berettaprofessor]

I'm in the minority here, but I'd say if you're noticing these things, I wouldn't say it's time to quit shooting, but I'd find a partner who is willing to closely supervise you when you do. The EoTech incident, I hope, isn't a big deal because I've left a Red Dot on myself, but the magazine and the Glock worries me a bit.

What you're describing is a very organized mind which is starting to notice that it is having sporadic and minor unorganized moments...and unfortunately, around firearms, the difference between a minor and a major accident can be whether or not you believe the gun is loaded when you clean and disassemble it. Yeah, I know, all guns are always loaded and never point it at anything you don't want to destroy, but pulling the trigger to disassemble that Glock is really an act of faith if you can't trust your memory.

 

[g.willikers]

Berettaprofessor,
Reread Terry's initial post, then read your reply.
Which one is dribbling them little grey cells out the fastest?
Or is it me?
Naw.

 

[g.willikers]

Eghads, look what just popped up in my email:
(Are they trying to tell me something?)

Johns Hopkins Health Alert
Low-Tech Screening Tests: A Snapshot of Cognitive Health

New developments in brain imaging represent major advances in Alzheimer's research and diagnosis. But some low-tech screening tests may offer quick, inexpensive snapshots of a person's cognitive health. Whether they are accurate enough to be used widely for dementia screening is debated, but they may be useful on an individual basis. Here are three-commonly used tests.

Clock-drawing test.

This is one of the best-known dementia screening tests. Patients are asked to draw a clock with the hands pointing to a specified time -- for example, 2:45. The most complete, well-organized, accurate and spatially correct drawing is rated a "10," and the least representative is rated a "1."

The more distorted and inaccurate the drawings are, the more likely the person has dementia. Some research has suggested that the clock drawing test fails to account for important factors like educational level and is of limited value.

Time and change tests.

This test measures the ability to tell time and perform a simple math task. The patient is given 60 seconds to read the time on an analog clock, with two attempts to get it right. Then, the person is given three quarters, seven dimes and seven nickels and asked to count out a dollar's worth of change within three minutes, with two attempts allowed.

Sniff test.

Researchers have known for some time that loss of smell is an early warning sign of Alzheimer's. The beta-amyloid plaques that ultimately destroy memory and other cognitive abilities accumulate first in areas of the brain that are responsible for odor perception.

In a paper that was presented at an American College of Neuropsychopharmacology meeting, people with mild cognitive impairment were given a 10-item sniff test. The odors were lemon, strawberry, pineapple, lilac, clove, menthol, smoke, natural gas, soap and leather. Participants who misidentified more than two odors were five times more likely to progress to Alzheimer's than were those who performed better on the test.

Caveat. Keep in mind that these are screenings but not diagnostic tests and should be given and interpreted by a health care professional. They often don't detect problems in well-educated people and over diagnose problems in those with little formal education. Poor results indicate probable cognitive impairment, but more sophisticated testing is necessary to make a diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease.

Posted in Memory on August 6, 2012

 

[GaryOlson]

Good news -- you have lost enough touch with reality you now qualify to be a Computer Systems Consultant or Computer Sales Representative. The easy life, expensive company paid lunches, and many other perks are within your grasp. (I am really half serious).

This sounds like me after a hard week dealing with computers, beauracracy, and general nitwits. Yes, I had an AD at the range because I could not remember what the firing state of the pistol was. Yes, I stood there dumbly looking at magazines, ammunition, and pistols without a clue how it all functioned, what worked with what, and sort of confused where I was and what day it was. And this is not unusual.

Just keep the discipline, follow routines no matter how basic, repeat the fundamentals even multiple times, and don't feel embarrased. No matter the profession, no matter what level you reach in that skill, repeating the basics will always get you grounded and focused.

On the dementia front, groundbreaking work and pharma are coming out and are available which deal with chronic low level inflammation. See Rock Creek Pharmacueticals.

Gary

 

[Eghad]

I think the recommendation of shooting with a friend is good thing to do. My father in law suffered from dementia having someone with him helped. I couldn't imagine giving up shooting just for fun as long as I could get some type of mechanical aid and/or a person to assist me doing it.

 

[Terry A]

Many, many sincere and heartfel thanks to each one of you for the great words of encouragemnet as well as all the wisdom and advice offered.

Thank you all so much! Very appreciated!

 

[darkhelmet]

i don't mean to say i'm in your situation. but i've been thinking about similar things. it doesn't matter if the groups are getting bigger. but safety is vital. the concern is whether we'll recognize when we're making mistakes that affect the safety of others.

forgetting to lock up a gun when grandkids could be around. faulty clearing of a chambered round. poor trigger discipline. it's a hard thing to give up a hobby that we enjoy when we feel like we're losing everything else. but i think we've got to give up the guns long before we give up the car keys.

maybe when the time comes, you have a relative that you would like to have your guns. that could take you out shooting. someone trustworthy to deal with storage, cleaning and transportation. who can help make sure you're safe when you're out shooting together.

best wishes

 

[ltc444]

Dylan Thomas said it best. Do not go quietly into that good night.

Live your life to the fullest. Shoot as long as you can (with supervision)

Many of your mental lapses occur to most of us at all ages. Do not panic consult additional docs and therapist.

You recognized a problem now go out and beat the experts.

 

[FloridaVeteran]

Terry - I am almost 70 and just now I lost the long post to you that I drafted, because I hit the wrong key. Loss of memory is a part of growing old. It seems that yours is happening faster than normal and, a no-brainer, faster than you'd wish.

Assuming that you need or want to live in a residence that doesn't afford much protection (like a retirement high-rise), I recommend you trust your wife with a gun only so long as she is voluntarily comfortable with that responsibility, knows how to use it and has practiced, and so long as she accepts that, increasingly, you might think that "sounds in the night" are more than they really are.

Trust your best shooting buddies to get you to and from the range, safely, so that you can continue to enjoy the sport, and entrust them with the storage and care of your guns.

But don't trust yourself, Terry, to be able to make accurate decisions at the right time. Many folks my age are stubborn about that idea, but I sense from your post that you are not stubborn. The eloquence of your writing in the post, IMO, is proof of that.

There is a time for folks to hand over the car keys. My mother resisted mightily (and was a platinum member at the body shop), but my mother-in-law did not. It comes for everyone, sooner or later. Your writing shows to me a commendably strong sense of responsibility, for which I congratulate you.

It's time to entrust a good shooting buddy or two with your guns and ammo, the management of your shooting schedule and transportation to and from the range. If you do that, you will be able to relax and enjoy life. All the best. I hope we meet on a range.

 

[Creeper]

Not to change the subject, but I just wanted to say that I'm glad your here Florida Veteran.
I hope that if cancer or my long suffering wife doesn't kill me before I reach 70... I'll be as well sorted as you seem to be.

Here's to a long healthy and happy life.

Cheers,
C

 

[FloridaVeteran]

Creeper - thanks very much for that. I've enjoyed the few exchanges we have had since I joined, in particular your gracious help about how to bracket "comments." In particular I wish you well in your recovery from the cancer and will keep you in my prayers.

There's a lot to be said for the observation that everyone at a gun show is super-polite because they don't know how many folks are armed, and I think that is a good thing. But I think that what is understated in that observation is that most folks at guns shows (at least the ones I attend) are decent, law-abiding, salt-of-the-earth freedom-loving (but leave-me-alone) Americans.

There I go, blathering on. Old age. But I still love shooting and blind spotters with good hearing, because I sure as heck will put a 250 gr. on that steel if I need to!

 

[FloridaVeteran]

Terry - I thought about this overnight and wanted to offer a few more observations:

I also read about the clock test to which g. willikers (sounds like a SASS guy!) referred. It looks pretty useful to me, though a clinical specialist working with you would be best. Since you said you have already been diagnosed with early-onset dementia, it is official and not just your own "inkling." And as you noted, you recently did several things, unintentionally, that could have been very dangerous to yourself and others, like the rounds in the chambers.

A buddy of mine had a TIA (small stroke) a few years back. In the old days he could memorize a phone book. To this day, he can remember my phone number from 1964. His speaking skills are excellent. But during the course of a phone conversation he can forget a major point I made at the beginning of the same conversation, which was a repeat of the main point I made the day before. That is more than the level of forgetfulness that seems to afflict everyone my age ("why did I walk into this room?" - the stuff typical of jokes).

He keeps all of his guns locked in a full length gun safe. Some day soon I'm going to recommend to him or maybe to his wife that he get the combination changed and that only his wife and one or two sons have the combination. That way, he'll have the satisfaction of knowing that no one "took" them and he will not have had to part with them.

He and I and most shooters of our generation are veterans. I have heard rumors, including a second-hand (that is, more believable) one, that at VA hospitals they increasingly ask about gun ownership and the rumor further goes that if a doc thinks there is any kind of mental issue with the patient, and if the patient acknowledges owning guns, the doc is to report this to someone. We all can figure out what that might lead to. Doubtless with all these new medical-practice laws, there will be increasing pressure on physicians to pry about this. If I were the one facing that, I'd prefer to have them safely residing, say, at my son's house so that I could honestly say I don't have any at home. Others may disagree with me on this.

As for concealed-carry, if you have a permit, it might be best to tell the folks you are not going to renew it because you have stopped carrying. I think that is a lot better than risking having it cancelled because a doctor disclosed whatever he/she was pressed to disclose.

The two unequivocal pieces of advice that I will give you is, first, do not conceal carry ever again; second, don't go shooting without a buddy/companion along, and make sure they know about the issues you described in your initial post. That will let them be a second set of eyes for you, so you can continue to enjoy the sport you love. It's unfair to the range officer not to do this. I find that just going to the range to watch a match is a lot of fun, even if I don't participate - you might give that a try.

All the best.

 

[spacecoast]

Wow... a great thread... some very heartfelt thoughts pouring out here, and I congratulate all of you for giving Terry your sage advice about continuing to safely enjoy the hobby (passion).

Terry and Creeper - best wishes to both of you especially. Good to hear that you both have spouses that are there to help support you. That's important.

Hmmm... so that's what I have... CRS, and getting worse by the minute. I think I started noticing it about 45.