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What do the Air Marshals carry?
- Thread starter Smith66
- Start date
I believe they carry wooden tippped bullets or something similar that lose almost all of their energy within 25 feet. The same kind that is given to guards that work in Nuclear Power Plants, as for as the weapons I don't know but probably the same as the pilots which I can't remember what that is right now; but I sure it is on this forum as a pilot recently had an AD
thequickad
New member
Correct but need to adjust for historic timelines and countries of origin -
"The earliest U.S. air marshals were normally armed with .38 Special revolvers. Israeli air marshals, among the first deployed, carried Beretta .22 autoloaders, relying on precise shot placement and multiple hits to eliminate a threat. It should be noted, too, that the Israelis carried their Berettas with the chamber empty and were trained to rack the slide as they brought the pistol into action. Swiss air marshals have been drawn from their canton's SEKs (SWAT teams) and assigned for temporary duty aboard Swiss Air flights. Carrying SIG P-225s with light loads and expanding bullets, they usually reflected their country's emphasis on individual marksmanship.
Russian air marshals usually carried Makarovs with special frangible loads. At least some of the Jordanian air marshals have been equipped with suppressed .22 pistols. Obviously, different units have developed different solutions.
US air marshals started with P225, then P228 both in 9mm and now are issued P229 in .357 SIG"
-quoted from GunsandAmmomag.com
"The earliest U.S. air marshals were normally armed with .38 Special revolvers. Israeli air marshals, among the first deployed, carried Beretta .22 autoloaders, relying on precise shot placement and multiple hits to eliminate a threat. It should be noted, too, that the Israelis carried their Berettas with the chamber empty and were trained to rack the slide as they brought the pistol into action. Swiss air marshals have been drawn from their canton's SEKs (SWAT teams) and assigned for temporary duty aboard Swiss Air flights. Carrying SIG P-225s with light loads and expanding bullets, they usually reflected their country's emphasis on individual marksmanship.
Russian air marshals usually carried Makarovs with special frangible loads. At least some of the Jordanian air marshals have been equipped with suppressed .22 pistols. Obviously, different units have developed different solutions.
US air marshals started with P225, then P228 both in 9mm and now are issued P229 in .357 SIG"
-quoted from GunsandAmmomag.com
blind_shooter
New member
Silly rabbit, Sigs are for men and apparently air marshalls
SIG .357
As stated before, their shooting requirements are TOUGH. Training sessions are ongoing and they are 'requested' to spend as much time as possible on the range. Unlimited ammo. Not sure of the make/style of ammo, but it is NOT cheap stuff.
They are also constantly learning new close-quarter tactics. I have seen a few in action and the methods are much more advanced than your typical LOE. (Not a cheap shot at LOE's but it is just a matter of specialized training.)
As stated before, their shooting requirements are TOUGH. Training sessions are ongoing and they are 'requested' to spend as much time as possible on the range. Unlimited ammo. Not sure of the make/style of ammo, but it is NOT cheap stuff.
They are also constantly learning new close-quarter tactics. I have seen a few in action and the methods are much more advanced than your typical LOE. (Not a cheap shot at LOE's but it is just a matter of specialized training.)
The marksmanship qualifications are shown on The Gun Zone website. I have read that the standards have been lowered substantially to qualify more marshals and FFDOs. As far as being "stringent" I would ask, compared to what? I have seen MANY IPSC shooters perform far above this level. Don't get me wrong, they're good, but they are not as good as many people make them out to be.
As far as being "stringent" I would ask, compared to what?
Compared to almost any other LEO qualification standard.
I have seen MANY IPSC shooters perform far above this level.
Do they generally shoot .357 Sig?
Nope. It is a standard JHP.I believe they carry wooden tippped bullets or something similar that lose almost all of their energy within 25 feet.
freakshow10mm
Moderator
News to me. Few friends of mine work at a NPP in WI. They carry FMJ or JHP ammo, depending on the weapon. Rifles and subguns get FMJ, the sidearms get JHP.The same kind that is given to guards that work in Nuclear Power Plants,
They carry SIG 229's in .357 SIG. Loaded with the Speer Gold Dot load.
My old ex-Army buddy works for them. He told me last time he was here that they have now been authorized to carry the 239 in .357 SIG as well. I know he was talking about off duty but I'm not sure if they could also carry them on planes if they wish?
He has been carrying his 229 off duty for so long that he thought it unlikely that he would switch.
Gregg
My old ex-Army buddy works for them. He told me last time he was here that they have now been authorized to carry the 239 in .357 SIG as well. I know he was talking about off duty but I'm not sure if they could also carry them on planes if they wish?
He has been carrying his 229 off duty for so long that he thought it unlikely that he would switch.
Gregg
The penetration of a handgun round of a plane's hull is no big deal.
This is correct. My son is engaged to an Air Marshal's daughter, and her dad and I have spent a lot of time together discussing matters and the proverbial "hole in the hull" is not an issue. I have actually flown on a flight with him sitting in the next row ahead and across the aisle. I watched him intently and you would never know that he is aware of everything going on in the plane.
tex
ElectricHellfire
New member
The penetration of a handgun round of a plane's hull is no big deal.
Absolutely correct. Doesn't anyone watch mythbusters? They did that one already and busted it.
.351winchester
Moderator
Airline Pilots have to choose between USP Compacts (or newer model?) w/ LEM trigger, and P229's w/DAK. .40 or .357. Not sure the bullet/load.
Better than DAO, but come on, that's hell for this 1911 guy.
Better than DAO, but come on, that's hell for this 1911 guy.
Doesn't anyone remember the May '02 SWAT magazine article on the FAM's?
The ammo they use may have changed in the last 5 or 6 years however.
The largest concern over penetrating the fuselage of a commercial jetliner is not in the decompression of the aircraft. That's fairly easy to deal with.
The bigger problem is delamination of the exterior skin of the aircraft. Still, with a typical handgun, this shouldn't be a problem under normal circumstances. According to a Boeing engineer I spoke with, the airflow over the skin of the plane can start peeling the aluminum back around the hole. A bullet passing through the plastic inner panels, insulation and then the outer panels will cause the air to suck insulating material through the hole. If this material snags on a rough edge of aluminum, the airflow can pull the metal loose from the underlying thin fiberglas support structure. Aircrews will slow the aircraft and descend to 12-13,000 ft and slowing down will reduce the damage considerably.
SWAT_May2002 said:Federal Air Marshals currently carry SIG P229 semiautomatic pistols chambered for the .357 SIG cartridge. They use special grooved aluminum hollow point ammunition that will not penetrate aircraft skin or damage aircraft systems components. FAM team members blend in with the passengers and will act only upon the Captain’s request or bodily harm being inflicted upon a cabin crewmember.
The ammo they use may have changed in the last 5 or 6 years however.
The largest concern over penetrating the fuselage of a commercial jetliner is not in the decompression of the aircraft. That's fairly easy to deal with.
The bigger problem is delamination of the exterior skin of the aircraft. Still, with a typical handgun, this shouldn't be a problem under normal circumstances. According to a Boeing engineer I spoke with, the airflow over the skin of the plane can start peeling the aluminum back around the hole. A bullet passing through the plastic inner panels, insulation and then the outer panels will cause the air to suck insulating material through the hole. If this material snags on a rough edge of aluminum, the airflow can pull the metal loose from the underlying thin fiberglas support structure. Aircrews will slow the aircraft and descend to 12-13,000 ft and slowing down will reduce the damage considerably.
Compared to LEO qualification standards? Is that some sort of benchmark to you? I have instructed LEOs and nonLEOs and observed both for years at qualification and at matches. I'm not cop bashing here, but their standards are set to enable officers to pass. Their administrators are not willing to spend the time and resources to achieve high levels of proficiency. Most departments will not provide the range time or ammunition for this to happen. It saddens me to see this happening, but that's where we have come to. I respect LEO professionals very much, but their training in woefully lacking for the job they are asked to do.